NEW plan - 1600 TURBO + oval + downunder

With Turbo and Super charging you can create massive horsepower with vw motors.

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petew
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Re: NEW plan - 1600 TURBO + oval + downunder

Post by petew » Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:47 am

BTW, I data logged all the way to the conference. Piledriver's tune with AFRs of 17 on the freeway at 60mph and CLT temps of low 60s degC! Man I'm totally nerding out on these graphs. I'll post some when I get home and have a proper interweb connection.

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Re: NEW plan - 1600 TURBO + oval + downunder

Post by petew » Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:46 am

Warning...

Image


I've been looking through yesterday's journey home on Megalogviewer. I've glanced at the scatter graphs before, but I finally started to use them for something useful. Specifically, I'm interested in how head temps (CLT), fuel mixtures (AFRs) and freeway driving (RPM) interact. The temp on the day was 27C (80F) so it was warm but not stinking hot. I drove home on the freeway and in traffic. At 60mph I'm doing 3200rpm approx. My cruising AFRs are 17. Pile driver coached me through running such high AFRs at cruising speeds.

CLTvsRPMvsAFR graph 12.9.2017.jpg

So, the motor ran 20% cooler on the freeway than idling at the lights. Nice stuff. That's enough to make me happy.

MATvsRPMvsAFR graph 12.9.2017.jpg

But what about intake air temp (MAT)? Post intercooler air was highest when cruising on the freeway. The intercooler pump switches on at 35C, so at 44C it is suffering ongoing heatsoak even though the motor is not in boost much of the time. Still it's less than 20degC above ambient air temp. Interested in people's thoughts on this finding.

I thought I might also make up a scatter graph with tracking boost (MAP) against post intercooler air temp (MAT) and AFRs.

MAPvsMATvsAFR graph 13.9.2017.jpg

I guess I'm most interested in the keeping the motor cool and happy in a prospectively hot climate. I've got the log from the day before when it was much cooler. I can post some of that too if you like. Who wants to nerd up first?
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rubenski
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Re: NEW plan - 1600 TURBO + oval + downunder

Post by rubenski » Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:04 pm

All i see is stuff hippies used to draw in the 70's
Better to be blown than to suck!

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panel
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Re: NEW plan - 1600 TURBO + oval + downunder

Post by panel » Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:39 pm

Pete , I've been wanting to know what to look for in these graphs for a long time.I've done a bit of reading and still a little lost .What have you learned and what do you make out of the scatter ?

I thought it was supposed to look more like this below?

http://www.nbs-stl.com/RxpxTuning/Map%2 ... %20AFR.png

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petew
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Re: NEW plan - 1600 TURBO + oval + downunder

Post by petew » Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:20 am

Hey panel, I think I'm a bit like you. Blinded by data, knowing there is useful info there by not sure what to do with it. Let me show you some comparisons between 2 different days. Same road, same speeds, same load (fat old me), same fuel, etc.

Sept 12th the ambient air temp was 27degC (80F)
Sept 14th the air temp was 18degC (64F)

So how does an extra 9C/15F deg of ambient air temp effect head temps (CLT)?

CLTvsRPMvsAFR graph 12.9.2017.jpg
CLTvsRPMvsAFR graph 14.9.2017.jpg

The yellow blob is (non boost) freeway driving @3200rpm with an AFR of 17. 'On average' then, 9(C) extra degrees of ambient temp leads to 15(C) extra degrees of head temp. What about intake temps (MAT)?

MATvsRPMvsAFR graph 12.9.2017.jpg
MATvsRPMvsAFR graph 14.9.2017.jpg

Again, the yellow blob shows (non boost) freeway driving. It's a little more spread out, but even still, we can see changes 'on average'. With an extra 9degC of ambient temps, we see an average increase of 10degC. Which is not bad really. These two graphs are easier to read off one another because the temp range is very close.

If you look in the top right corner of the graph from the 14th you'll see a blue "lasseau" if you will going from 3200-3550rpm. That was me trying to see the effects of a WOT (wide open throttle) pull up to 70mph. That's when I got the hottest intake temps on that day. I also wanted to see how fast the intake temps would drop back to 'normal' (middle of the yellow blob) again. However, on the 9th, with higher ambient temps, we had a totally different situation. Cruising freeway intake temps (NON-boost) with the intercooler pump on ALL the time were significantly higher than the 14th. I guess the point is that generally cruising intake temps will tend to be 15degC than the ambient air temp. This tells me on a 35degC day (95F), the intake temps when cruising will be around 50degC (122F) BEFORE I get into boost.

It also tells me, to expect something near a 7-10degC increase in intake temps on WOT from 60mph. Anything under freeway speed will mean a bigger increase in intake temps under WOT. I also got my highest boost reading every with WOT from 60mph, that being 6.6psi. My guess is more boost will mean more heat still in the intake.

The point being, there's actually a LOT of information there if I do regular comparable data logging. Individual points might not mean anything. A lot of them with a few 'controls' can tells us a lot about the engine and how it's coping with things. I should line these up against my datalogs from the Canberra trip.

Does that help?
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Re: NEW plan - 1600 TURBO + oval + downunder

Post by petew » Thu Sep 21, 2017 7:31 pm

Ok, so this isn't turbo stuff... but, it's getting me closer and closer to a legal turbo street car. Australian laws are really beyond nanny state now. Anyhow. Last week I put the new rear drums on the car. I drove it on the new drums for a few days, but it's not been quite right. Turned out that when I first adjusted them I had the handbrake on and that gave me all manner of issues. One of them was way too much pedal travel and the need to pump them. I reckon I got air in them. So I had the car booked in for an official brake test yesterday and that meant a proper bleed first.

BTW, for anyone bleeding VW drums, the best bleed comes when you adjust the shoes hard against the drums, then pull the handbrake lever on too. There's nowhere the air can hide! :twisted:

My wife (who hates the car) helped me bless her. A fair bit of air came out of the rear brakes. It also gave me a chance to put clean fluid through the system, although the front was pretty good. How much better was the pedal afterwards?

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

It's the BEST pedal feel I've ever had in the car. :shock: I was literally groaning and moaning with delight. Yeah, sorry about that. Poor old wifey thought there was something wrong. Instead I was getting my thrills off a good brake pedal. :lol: That's kinda sad right. :roll:

Anyhow, here are the test results.


brake test 21.9.2017.jpg


I'm not exactly sure what the yellow figures mean, but I suspect he didn't push the pedal hard enough. It pulls up really well now. And the handbrake... oh the handbrake... oh, man. It's like beyond beautiful. :mrgreen:

P.s. I might need a wheel alignment.
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madmike
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Re: NEW plan - 1600 TURBO + oval + downunder

Post by madmike » Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:17 am

Ha,,when I can get her to help :roll: :lol: My wife always ask's me ,,, which pedal???? she never drives a stick shift :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: NEW plan - 1600 TURBO + oval + downunder

Post by petew » Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:44 am

madmike wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:17 am
Ha,,when I can get her to help :roll: :lol: My wife always ask's me ,,, which pedal???? she never drives a stick shift :lol: :lol: :lol:
Mine does drive manual and STILL has to ask which pedal! :lol:

On another note, my engineering signatory tells me I left 2 tests out of the brake test. So I'll have to get that sorted. #sigh

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Re: NEW plan - 1600 TURBO + oval + downunder

Post by panel » Fri Sep 22, 2017 10:14 pm

Pete , a great vid is up re: Scatter plots...... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7zqmWfblxg

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Re: NEW plan - 1600 TURBO + oval + downunder

Post by petew » Fri Sep 22, 2017 11:41 pm

Man, that's GOLD! Thanks heaps. :)

That'll be hours of nerding out for me to do in the front of the TV. LOL

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Re: NEW plan - 1600 TURBO + oval + downunder

Post by petew » Sun Sep 24, 2017 7:27 am

panel wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 10:14 pm
Pete , a great vid is up re: Scatter plots...... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7zqmWfblxg
Had a play with MLV HD but I can't seem to get the Target AFRs to show up on the graphs for some reason. It just gives me a flat line at 17. Any ideas? Piledriver? What am I doing wrong?

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Re: NEW plan - 1600 TURBO + oval + downunder

Post by Piledriver » Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:11 pm

If the log is only of when the target is 17, that's what you'll see.
One typically is more concerned with the error, rather than the target, but the target is in the pulldown on my setup.

Why are you using MLV HD? It may not support the variable names used by Megasquirt.
(MLV MS is used for Megasquirt)

All the same functionality otherwise, the HD version is simply made for Harley Davidsons EFI setup.
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Re: NEW plan - 1600 TURBO + oval + downunder

Post by Chip Birks » Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:50 pm

Pretty Sure the HD is their top of the line version. Shouldn't be an issue with MS. I've used it for at least a year now.

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Re: NEW plan - 1600 TURBO + oval + downunder

Post by Piledriver » Sun Sep 24, 2017 5:04 pm

Chip Birks wrote:
Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:50 pm
Pretty Sure the HD is their top of the line version. Shouldn't be an issue with MS. I've used it for at least a year now.
Ah, I see my error and cause of confusion... TunerStudio top of line version is called "Ultra" now, I figured that would be both products, as IIRC there used to be a HD specific version (of TS) so I figured... :oops:

$60 to upgrade both... Payday.

I bought both TS and MLV package on sale many years ago, the day I started the engine for the first time running MS. It paid for itself in ~20 minutes as VEAL gave me a drivable tune that quickly putting around
Now, I could do it in 2-3 highway onramp "pulls" (with VEAL and the lambda delay set right)
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Re: NEW plan - 1600 TURBO + oval + downunder

Post by petew » Sun Sep 24, 2017 5:39 pm

Would I be right in thinking that Target AFR has something to do with tune file? Because I've got it loaded, but I still get a flat yellow line at 17 in the log for Target AFR. It doesn't most match the AFR log.

And yes, TS and MLV are gold. They've saved my bacon a few times already. :)

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