MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo "Beetle"

[Devastator]

Devastator wrote:
I bought my hall sensor, (not VR BTW)

This is one that is confusing me. What is the difference? Both run on a trigger wheel (36-1)? Both are sensors that pick up a signal and tell the MS when its time to fire?

VR is Variable Reluctor and Hall is...Hall Effect Sensor. IIRC, I used the Hall because it was easier to alter MS2 for it. It was also easily mounted, very affordable, and readily available. The only problems I had with mine was that the gap was listed as a standard setting, but was actually a MAXIMUM setting. So, when set to the right spec, it would run for about a mile and quit because the bracket would heat up and pull it away from the wheel. Eventually I figured out what was wrong and have not skipped a beat since. I also discovered that the maximum operating temperature was fairly low considering my engine is air cooled, (I don't remember the max temp., but you can look it up at DIY).

[fastback]

the VR sensor is a "simpler" sensor (teoretically) more reliable as it has less parts in it.
it contains a magnet and a coil
but the signal may vary from ~0.5V cranking up to as high as ~100V at max rpm.
making the job for the ECU to handle the signal variations harder.

a hall sensor is "active" with minor electronic in it and is more "picky" when it comes to heat .
IIRC the common hall sensors is rated 125C max operating temp
but will give a steady 5 or 12 v signal (depending on the supply voltage )in the whole RPM range.

i have struggled with VR's direct into on my megasquirt's, but using hall (and pullup resistor) they have not skipped a tooth
using OEM systems like EDIS etc , that uses VR ,is working very good, but these are designed specifically for the VR sensor.
Megasquirt is designed to use almost all types of triggers, so there has been a compromise on the signal inputs to handle many types of sensors , i belive.

[kangaboy]

Reviving my thread. Just got done with my big move from Cali back to the Midwest (something that I will hold against my wife for a while) and got myself a new job that can finance my new MegaSquirt endeavor.

What is the best way to start this build off? I have an outline in my head that I want to follow (fuel and spark), so with this said, should I just purchase the MS3v3 from DIYAutoTune, build it and then buy everything else around it (trigger wheel, Hall sensor, coils, injectors, manifolds, etc)?

MS3v3
JimStim v1.5
MS3 USB Cable
8' Wire Harness

This is what I'm thinking for a first round purchase to give me something to do for a while, and so I can get a foot hold on what is happening. Anything else I should include with the initial purchase?

[MarioVelotta]

What is the best way to start this build off? I have an outline in my head that I want to follow (fuel and spark), so with this said, should I just purchase the MS3v3 from DIYAutoTune, build it and then buy everything else around it (trigger wheel, Hall sensor, coils, injectors, manifolds, etc)?

That is a great place to start.

What coils are you going to start with? If COP remember to get your BIPs or the QuadSpark for dumb coils.

Depending on the trigger wheel combo you go with you may get a VR or Hall sensor. You will still use the VR input for either on the V3 board. It is just a matter of POT position. The setup jumpers are the same.

Injectors much like a cam should be picked lasts so you can get to mist from them. You don't want to leave 50% duty cycle on the table by over shooting. Or run them at 90% by undershooting.

[kangaboy]

Alright...it's only been a few months lol, but I pulled the trigger on all items listed above. Assembly and questions regarding basic construction of MS3 soon to follow.
I saw Mario has the Mini-Cam-Sync that can do the sequencial spark/fuel like I was planning in the first place. I just hope they are in stock when its time to buy. Also need to figure out what coils will be used for a set up like that. Are COP the way to go? Like I stated initially, I would like to focus on ignition first...then fuel.

[Max Welton]

Injectors much like a cam should be picked lasts so you can get to mist from them. You don't want to leave 50% duty cycle on the table by over shooting. Or run them at 90% by undershooting.

I think use of an FPR that can reference MAP (variable fuel pressure) can make injectors behave "smaller" at low MAPs and "bigger" at high MAPs.

Max

[squeakie]

Alright...it's only been a few months lol, but I pulled the trigger on all items listed above. Assembly and questions regarding basic construction of MS3 soon to follow.
I saw Mario has the Mini-Cam-Sync that can do the sequencial spark/fuel like I was planning in the first place. I just hope they are in stock when its time to buy. Also need to figure out what coils will be used for a set up like that. Are COP the way to go? Like I stated initially, I would like to focus on ignition first...then fuel.

please, don't take this the wrong way. but you can do the mini-cam-sync yourself. i am so not trying to take anything away from Mario. he is awesome and i think we should support everything he does. i have gone "redneck" and did my own little mini-cam-sync and eventually, i think i would like to buy Mario's because it is just so much nicer than anything i can do on my own in my garage.

i know a lot of people feel more comfortable going with ignition first and then fuel. i am not trying to persuade anyone from doing that. little bites, small steps... it is always good. better to not take a too big of a bite... but having said all of that, the spark ignition engine needs 3 things to run, right? fuel, spark and compression. why do we choose ignition over fuel as the "easier component"? i feel like fuel is easier. with fuel, you can setup a dummy situation and see that fuel spraying and and and and you can do your injector dead time (dwell) timing figures! i just feel like the fuel part of it is more hands-on and more of something that you can hold in your hand and is more real. hahaha. yes, yes, i am a weirdo, but it is gooooood. ok, shameless plug for my own video:
https://youtu.be/DajlivIJMkU

[Steve Arndt]

People have been mounting cam pickup sensors on the rocker arm (#2 exhaust hint hint, basic hall sensor) for about 25 years. Same with putting a sensor on the cam gear through the case or oil pump area.

[kangaboy]

You guys aren't helping!! Lol
Please post away. I need all the background and references I can get. I'm not opposed to spending some cash up front to get the best equipment, but if I can spend it in places other than what I propose, please speak up.

[Chip Birks]

I built my own cam sync out of a vanagon distributor. It wasn't hard and worked great. Cost me nothing. Wasn't the prettiest solution though. I eventually did buy Mario's product. I was first in line to get one. I think it cleaned things up a lot.

[Piledriver]

Since we are discussing all options, you can also install a missing tooth wheel in the distributor and run sequential with one sensor.

A 009 body looks like it would take a ~60 tooth 32 pitch gear... I'm running a 36 tooth, steel spur gear from a "gas" RC truck in a modded 009.
(actually methanol + some %nitomethane up to 90%, but everyone still always calls it "gas".)

There is also a fellow selling (or could set it up that way) a modded 009 with a missing tooth wheel/hall on TOS/ebay.
The sensor lives in the custom cap supplied. The std setup (24-2 with opposing missing teeth) simulates a 12-1 missing tooth crank wheel to work with MS1, but he can make it as 24-1 just as easily. This will work with MS2e or MS3.

Mario has been working on a compact setup that works the same way.

[kangaboy]

I received all my ordered items on Saturday. Super quick shipping! I got all ready to start assembling the board, but then quickly found out the $10 soldering iron and .050" diameter solder was a terrible combo. New iron and solder roll ordered from amazon. I'll begin assembly when I get them on Tuesday.

[Chip Birks]

I use a $15 dual watt iron from radioshack with a 10 watt tip installed. It burns through tips fairly frequently, like ever few hundred solder joints. I also use .32 rosin core solder. This combo works great on through hole pcb work in my experience, multiple ms boards under my belt.

[Piledriver]

...Metcal and Pace setups here for PCB rework here (I greatly prefer Metcal irons, and the pace sodr-extractors vs the reverse, also have Pace and Metcal hot tweezers, each has their own strengths, looking at a hot air system)

I have a spare complete Metcal PS200 setup if anyone wants to upgrade to a good (economy) production quality soldering station.
(power supply, iron, 3 sizes of quick change tips and stand)
Temp control to +/1C of tips rated temp. (Google metcal soldering patent for how they manage to do that with no sensors)

The tips can last for ages even with regular use, but they cost more than a buck.

Thermaltronics makes excellent replacement tips in many designs for ~1/2 what OKi/Metcal wants.
(patent expired ~2005)

[kangaboy]

I ordered the Hakko 888D.
I wanted to spend a few more bucks and get a easy to use solder station. I went to the megasquirt forums and eveyone there gave it good reviews, and had a few good videos showing it in action. Hoping it works as good for me as it did for them.