2,23 ltr type 4 turbo build-up

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Wally
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Re: 2,23 ltr type 4 turbo build-up

Post by Wally » Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:11 am

Thanks Chip, Pile,

These seem they might fit:
http://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/2003.htm
Its because the Magnaspark dizzy cap seems to have the same ends as the amp-efi coils?
http://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/2016.htm

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andy198712
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Re: 2,23 ltr type 4 turbo build-up

Post by andy198712 » Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:26 am

Was it the air filters? Getting atmosphic at WOT?
Or something detached in the silencer?

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Wally
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Re: 2,23 ltr type 4 turbo build-up

Post by Wally » Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:18 pm

andy198712 wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:26 am
Was it the air filters? Getting atmosphic at WOT?
Or something detached in the silencer?
Nope, I did just found out the problem 99% sure though: after some testing and fiddling around, I measured 12V on BOTH poles on one injector :shock: . The spark plug on exactly that same cylinder was rather black and after changing plugs around, that same cylinder showed a very wet spark plug...
Must be it.
Coming weekend changing out the injectors to my 1000ID's again (450cc's are on it now) in anticipation of the turbo addition later this coming winter 8) and digging into the cables to find the short... Not looking forward to that, but its gotta be done.
T4T: Type 4 Turbo engine, under construction

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Re: 2,23 ltr type 4 turbo build-up

Post by petew » Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:38 pm

What's the attraction with COP vs regular coil packs?

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Piledriver
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Re: 2,23 ltr type 4 turbo build-up

Post by Piledriver » Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:44 pm

petew wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:38 pm
What's the attraction with COP vs regular coil packs?
Very little difference other than packaging.
I have seen LS2 coil packs set up as COPs with fabricated plug adapters...

I kinda prefer a CNP setup as the short plug wire allows you to keep the worst of the heat off the coils.
I, for one, regularly embrace our new robot overlords, as I am the guy fixing the robots...

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Chip Birks
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Re: 2,23 ltr type 4 turbo build-up

Post by Chip Birks » Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:06 pm

I'm betting he means the difference between a 4 post coil and a single post coil...

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Re: 2,23 ltr type 4 turbo build-up

Post by Wally » Fri Oct 20, 2017 2:32 am

petew wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:38 pm
What's the attraction with COP vs regular coil packs?
Packaging would be my main reason as CNP (coil near plug has my preference too Pile) would allow me to mount the coils at the sides of the engine bay, giving room for turbo related things in the middle and long leads only give changes of electrical interference and possible damaging from hot and/or moving parts :D

As I understand it, single coils, sequentially fired, would give a coil twice the time to recover for building up a new strong spark as compared to batch firing (what I have now and most of us with EFI use).
This is what you want as high boost can make lighting the charge more difficult (a lot of fuel in a small room, less atomisation possible) and you would need a stronger spark. Ideally also a strong (high Voltage) spark that prolongs a bit longer so every part of the charge gets lit helps even more. Like a CDI spark from an MSD unit so to speak. A very strong prolonged spark just needs a bit more time to build-up and needs time to 'burn'. Single sequential coils gives more time for both those things.

So, especially very high revving engines and engines with higher boost settings would benefit from single sequential single coils. I hope to do a little of both :roll: , so it may also help there for me besides packaging.

That said, good batch firing coil-packs do light up 8K+ RPM and 2 bar boosted engines without problems too, or so I heard, but you can never have too much overkill hey? :lol:
T4T: Type 4 Turbo engine, under construction

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Re: 2,23 ltr type 4 turbo build-up

Post by Piledriver » Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:25 pm

Yes, the std VW 106(x) 4 tower coil was even spotted doing ignition duty of one of the ludicrous 1200++ HP Boba tuned AWD Golfs. Those run over 4 bar IIRC.
I was thinking of picking one up just to play with it.
(coil, not Boba tuned Golf :twisted: )

The Mercury-style coils (IGN1/IGN1A) have a lot of extra power available with boost-variable dwell, the LS2 coils (truck version esp) hit hard but don't hit much harder w/increasing dwell, and have a hard dwell limit.

ANY of the above work great in most conditions.

As a complete aside, one of the new Mercury SB4v looks like it would almost fit in a 914... :twisted:
Also, IIRC Someone stuck a 1650 in an Ultima. (1650 is akso its HP rating from factory)
Not sure how many transaxles exist that would hold one.
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Re: 2,23 ltr type 4 turbo build-up

Post by petew » Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:02 am

Piledriver wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:25 pm
Yes, the std VW 106(x) 4 tower coil was even spotted doing ignition duty of one of the ludicrous 1200++ HP Boba tuned AWD Golfs. Those run over 4 bar IIRC.
I was thinking of picking one up just to play with it.
(coil, not Boba tuned Golf :twisted: )
Here's one I prepared earlier...

IMG20170120081550.jpg

Look, it's hiding on the firewall on the left hand side. So I'm good for 4 bar? :lol:
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Re: 2,23 ltr type 4 turbo build-up

Post by Piledriver » Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:54 pm

You'll probably have to close the plug gap up a bit, but by the time you get to 4 bar that will be the least of your issues...
IZ would expect the transmission or at least the ring gear to divorce itself fro the car long before that.
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Re: 2,23 ltr type 4 turbo build-up

Post by petew » Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:23 am

Piledriver wrote:
Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:54 pm
You'll probably have to close the plug gap up a bit, but by the time you get to 4 bar that will be the least of your issues...
IZ would expect the transmission or at least the ring gear to divorce itself fro the car long before that.
...and the solid tops in the piston... :roll:

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Re: 2,23 ltr type 4 turbo build-up

Post by Wally » Mon Oct 23, 2017 4:58 am

It turned out that the cylinder with both the injector terminals showing 12V, also was the one I used for the waterinjection pulse reference...
So, after I pulled the socket from the WI unit, 12V immidiately disappeared. Must be a faulty brain of the WI, hopefully I can still find a replacement (its an older unit by now, from Aquamist).

Running with all 4 cylinders participating equally makes quit a difference :lol:

Hopefully a rematch on the dyno soon 8)
T4T: Type 4 Turbo engine, under construction

34plus2
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Re: 2,23 ltr type 4 turbo build-up

Post by 34plus2 » Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:38 am

Wally wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 2:32 am
petew wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:38 pm
What's the attraction with COP vs regular coil packs?
Packaging would be my main reason as CNP (coil near plug has my preference too Pile) would allow me to mount the coils at the sides of the engine bay, giving room for turbo related things in the middle and long leads only give changes of electrical interference and possible damaging from hot and/or moving parts :D

As I understand it, single coils, sequentially fired, would give a coil twice the time to recover for building up a new strong spark as compared to batch firing (what I have now and most of us with EFI use).
This is what you want as high boost can make lighting the charge more difficult (a lot of fuel in a small room, less atomisation possible) and you would need a stronger spark. Ideally also a strong (high Voltage) spark that prolongs a bit longer so every part of the charge gets lit helps even more. Like a CDI spark from an MSD unit so to speak. A very strong prolonged spark just needs a bit more time to build-up and needs time to 'burn'. Single sequential coils gives more time for both those things.

So, especially very high revving engines and engines with higher boost settings would benefit from single sequential single coils. I hope to do a little of both :roll: , so it may also help there for me besides packaging.

That said, good batch firing coil-packs do light up 8K+ RPM and 2 bar boosted engines without problems too, or so I heard, but you can never have too much overkill hey? :lol:
I would try a single coil pack first but in conjunction with a CDI. Not much space for COP anyway.

Look at this Eclipse DSM. Stock coil pack / CDI / 36PSI 750 whp. 8500 rpm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeRduy7Z6fA

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Re: 2,23 ltr type 4 turbo build-up

Post by Wally » Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:35 am

That Eclipse uses E85, which is even a little harder to ignite at high boost levels!

Anyways, if I don't want any ignition leads to cross over to the other side of the engine bay (my preference), I would need 4 individual coils on each side of the engine bay to run twin spark...hmmm.

Edit: just remembered twin spark is only possible in wasted spark mode with my ecu... so I'll be using coupled coil blocks anyways..(and long leads..)
T4T: Type 4 Turbo engine, under construction

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Re: 2,23 ltr type 4 turbo build-up

Post by andy198712 » Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:17 pm

Good news finding the issue! I’ve read a few too many threads across the internet on progressive controllers failing, AEM, devils own and now yours too.
Makes me want to go the boost switch route but that’s on or off..... although it’s safe,

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