250HP+ 1600DP Mouse Motor
- Chip Birks
- Posts: 4004
- Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2008 5:59 pm
Re: 250HP 1600dp
I definitely see a use in shifting with the throttle planted. Looking at this graph of mine, it costed me a TON of time trying to get my turbo spooling again. 3rd to 4th took almost 2 seconds to get back to full boost! I think this little 2276 of mine has more potential than the 11.44 it gave me on this pass...probably help if i wasn't drowning it too
- Piledriver
- Moderator
- Posts: 22518
- Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 12:01 am
Re: 250HP 1600dp
MS2e/MS3 have rally-style antilag capability these days, should help some.
Kinda hard on the turbo for extended use like a rally car, but for short bursts down the drag strip it should work great.
Kinda hard on the turbo for extended use like a rally car, but for short bursts down the drag strip it should work great.
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
- petew
- Posts: 3920
- Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2006 4:05 pm
Re: 250HP 1600dp
How would you set that up? Could I do it on my Microsquirt?
- Kalle
- Posts: 441
- Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2004 12:10 am
Re: 250HP 1600dp
Interesting log file Chip, thank you sharing.
As you mention yourselves, you do loose quite a lot of power and of course time with a AFR like yours on that specific run. I`m still amazed over the results on the dyno when I lean my turbo engines out from around 11.8 - 11.9 at full boost to 12.3 - 12.5:1. Easy 40-50 hp at the wheels. And you see the same results when you start to add ignition. 11.44 is not even close to your potential!
If antilag is an option then it will of course help. If not, then investigate your rpms limit options. Soft cut, fuel cut, ignition cut etc. If your ECU do not have any options then at least make sure you have a gentle rpm cut in order to keep things under control in case you dont find the gear immediately.
One more thing, I also believe it is safer to keep the boost up all the time. Unloading the rear suspension 3 times during a run is not what you really want. A good launching 350 - 400 flywheel hp turbo beetle have the same speed halfway (1/8" mile) as a NA cal-look with 190 - 210 flywheel HP crossing the 1/4" mile. That put things in a perspective me thinks...
I`m on my way to my garage. It is 15F outside and snowing. Nice!
Best rgs
-K-
As you mention yourselves, you do loose quite a lot of power and of course time with a AFR like yours on that specific run. I`m still amazed over the results on the dyno when I lean my turbo engines out from around 11.8 - 11.9 at full boost to 12.3 - 12.5:1. Easy 40-50 hp at the wheels. And you see the same results when you start to add ignition. 11.44 is not even close to your potential!
If antilag is an option then it will of course help. If not, then investigate your rpms limit options. Soft cut, fuel cut, ignition cut etc. If your ECU do not have any options then at least make sure you have a gentle rpm cut in order to keep things under control in case you dont find the gear immediately.
One more thing, I also believe it is safer to keep the boost up all the time. Unloading the rear suspension 3 times during a run is not what you really want. A good launching 350 - 400 flywheel hp turbo beetle have the same speed halfway (1/8" mile) as a NA cal-look with 190 - 210 flywheel HP crossing the 1/4" mile. That put things in a perspective me thinks...
I`m on my way to my garage. It is 15F outside and snowing. Nice!
Best rgs
-K-
- Wally
- Posts: 4562
- Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2002 12:01 am
Re: 250HP 1600dp
That had me laughing out loud !Kalle wrote: The engine was so loud that I was not allowed to start it until it was my time to do the burn out.
Yeah, I hope for them your spool wasn't installed thenYou can imagine the guys was tired after pushing my car around the depo at Brumunddal Walter.
@Andy: don't forget he runs E85, so cooling/intercooling is far less critical with that fuel. Carefull what you compare.
Also leaning out and advancing the ignition is a steep slope right before you see broken ringlands and cracked cylinders...
'don't try this at home' if you're not exactly confident what you're doing (please)
Cool comparisons gents
T4T: 2,4ltr Type 4 Turbo engine, 10.58 1/4 mi
www.apfelbeck.nl
"Mine isn't turbo'd to make a slow engine fast, but to make a fast engine insane" - Chip Birks
www.apfelbeck.nl
"Mine isn't turbo'd to make a slow engine fast, but to make a fast engine insane" - Chip Birks
- Chip Birks
- Posts: 4004
- Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2008 5:59 pm
Re: 250HP 1600dp
That run was so such because it was literally the first time the car had ever had a snort of methanol added while running. E85 as the base fuel, and then methanol sprayed once the boost came in. That's why the intake temp drops 30 degrees. I probably should have thrown a few more degrees of timing at it. Also running ambient temp water through the intercooler. I've never iced it. Ultimately this was a shakedown run on a very sticky track, I didn't want to break the trans, and only launched at 5500. I can setup a flat shift limiter, although the overall limiter is set at 7500rpm right now, so really I could've just left the throttle on the floor the whole time, 7500 won't hurt it. Good info here for when I make the swap to the mouse. I just need to get motivated to build it!
-
- Posts: 2433
- Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 1:01 pm
Re: 250HP 1600dp
Wally wrote:That had me laughing out loud !Kalle wrote: The engine was so loud that I was not allowed to start it until it was my time to do the burn out.Yeah, I hope for them your spool wasn't installed thenYou can imagine the guys was tired after pushing my car around the depo at Brumunddal Walter.
@Andy: don't forget he runs E85, so cooling/intercooling is far less critical with that fuel. Carefull what you compare.
Also leaning out and advancing the ignition is a steep slope right before you see broken ringlands and cracked cylinders...
'don't try this at home' if you're not exactly confident what you're doing (please)
Cool comparisons gents
Ahhhhhh, can't seem to get it in the uk! Shame
- Piledriver
- Moderator
- Posts: 22518
- Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 12:01 am
Re: 250HP 1600dp
Probably, its just an MS2 in a (much) smaller sealable form factor.petew wrote:How would you set that up? Could I do it on my Microsquirt?
Just search for antilag in the msextra forums.
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
-
- Posts: 4719
- Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2007 9:28 pm
Re: 250HP 1600dp
It's probably under the Boost/Advanced tab and then click on Launch control.
The first tab on there gives you a Launch control or launch/flat shift option.
I have messed with it a little bit but have not tested it except for once in the garage testing the launch control at 4000 rpm. It would build 6 lbs. boost instantly and possibly more if I changed my EBC settings.
Flat shift is a whole new game for me and I'm not sure I really should be messing with that when on the street......
The first tab on there gives you a Launch control or launch/flat shift option.
I have messed with it a little bit but have not tested it except for once in the garage testing the launch control at 4000 rpm. It would build 6 lbs. boost instantly and possibly more if I changed my EBC settings.
Flat shift is a whole new game for me and I'm not sure I really should be messing with that when on the street......
Stripped66 wrote:The point wasn't to argue air temps with the current world record holder, but to dispel the claim that the K03 is wrapped up at 150 HP. It's not.
- Kalle
- Posts: 441
- Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2004 12:10 am
Re: 250HP 1600dp
Hi guys,
The engine is out but I`m too old to lift it up on my workbench alone so I did not proceed with the leak down. More to come later with new pictures.
Very fair points from Wally and it is important that we all remember that both me and Niklas use E85. You can only lean out and add ignition to a certain point and beyond that point it has a tendency to destroy parts. If I was going to boost my engine more in order to find the limits I would like my AFR "fat as a pig" as long as I`m able to ignite the mixture. I believe Niklas took his engine up to 3 bar - 43 psi on the dyno before the heads started to lift. Remember this was (is) with a high duration camshaft not building cylinder pressure before "up there".
BTW, I have forgot to mention that I have flow tested, cleaned and lubed all my injectors lately and my conclusion is: As soon as you notice any changes in your AFR or for those with exhaust temp sensor, (a big value add) a change in the temperature and/or experience misfire, take the injectors out and change the screen filters. Every single time I test my injectors it has ALWAYS been the screen filters. They are cheap @ $9,99 for 25 pieces but they will destroy parts once clogged. Or even better, remove the screen filters from your injectors and instead add a high quality 10 micron pre-filter somewhere on your fuel line before the injectors. Like this one: http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/r ... /overview/ I take it for granted that you use E85 compatible hoses and so on.
Until later, have a nice day!
-K-
The engine is out but I`m too old to lift it up on my workbench alone so I did not proceed with the leak down. More to come later with new pictures.
Very fair points from Wally and it is important that we all remember that both me and Niklas use E85. You can only lean out and add ignition to a certain point and beyond that point it has a tendency to destroy parts. If I was going to boost my engine more in order to find the limits I would like my AFR "fat as a pig" as long as I`m able to ignite the mixture. I believe Niklas took his engine up to 3 bar - 43 psi on the dyno before the heads started to lift. Remember this was (is) with a high duration camshaft not building cylinder pressure before "up there".
BTW, I have forgot to mention that I have flow tested, cleaned and lubed all my injectors lately and my conclusion is: As soon as you notice any changes in your AFR or for those with exhaust temp sensor, (a big value add) a change in the temperature and/or experience misfire, take the injectors out and change the screen filters. Every single time I test my injectors it has ALWAYS been the screen filters. They are cheap @ $9,99 for 25 pieces but they will destroy parts once clogged. Or even better, remove the screen filters from your injectors and instead add a high quality 10 micron pre-filter somewhere on your fuel line before the injectors. Like this one: http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/r ... /overview/ I take it for granted that you use E85 compatible hoses and so on.
Until later, have a nice day!
-K-
-
- Posts: 4719
- Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2007 9:28 pm
Re: 250HP 1600dp
I am quite certain that after looking at Kalle's log and seeing advance at 30 degrees, IAT's at 29* C and the use of the E85, there is no way that we with only pump gas could ever achieve that amount of hp from our smaller engines.
Doing the conversion 29*C is about 78*F and that is lower than my ambient IAT's of about 80*F in the fall/spring and 100*F Ambient IAT's in the summer. Having boosted temps of 135*F and higher and advance at 20* BTDC are not compatible with making high hp.
Doing the conversion 29*C is about 78*F and that is lower than my ambient IAT's of about 80*F in the fall/spring and 100*F Ambient IAT's in the summer. Having boosted temps of 135*F and higher and advance at 20* BTDC are not compatible with making high hp.
Stripped66 wrote:The point wasn't to argue air temps with the current world record holder, but to dispel the claim that the K03 is wrapped up at 150 HP. It's not.
- Chip Birks
- Posts: 4004
- Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2008 5:59 pm
Re: 250HP 1600dp
Welcome to water to air intercooling clonebug. You can throw ice in the tank and get IATs way below ambient, even at full boost. But you are right, E85 is the key to this combo.
- rubenski
- Posts: 2033
- Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2014 3:28 am
Re: 250HP 1600dp
I've always wondered, with ice in the intercooler system, how long would the ice that you put in there last on a street driven car?
Excuse me if its a real stupid question. ...
Excuse me if its a real stupid question. ...
Better to be blown than to suck!
- Piledriver
- Moderator
- Posts: 22518
- Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 12:01 am
Re: 250HP 1600dp
It's more of a drag day thing.
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
- Chip Birks
- Posts: 4004
- Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2008 5:59 pm
Re: 250HP 1600dp
A good efficient system should melt all of the ice every 1/4 mile pass. It wouldn't be a good idea to use it on the street. Better to just have a radiator type setup to control the temps.rubenski wrote:I've always wondered, with ice in the intercooler system, how long would the ice that you put in there last on a street driven car?
Excuse me if its a real stupid question. ...