Re: Type 1 twin screw supercharger build / 6 yrs later I'm back at it

With Turbo and Super charging you can create massive horsepower with vw motors.

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Alexander_Monday
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Re: Type 1 twin screw supercharger build / 6 yrs later I'm back at it

Post by Alexander_Monday » Sun Dec 19, 2010 10:21 pm

I am starting this thread as a referance and to avoid cluttering up others.

This is my latest build and my first boosted VW engine.
I ran it N/A with 44 IDF's for a couple of thousand miles.
I hope to have the supercharger install done by spring.
It is currently on hold until after the holidays.
I am also converting to E85 at the same time.

Here is the low down so far. (not all items installed yet)

New mag case clearanced and machined by me, except bronze lifter bores by Brothers
82MM unknown brand crank that I got in the early 80's standard/standard checked by DPR
Lightend VW flywheel wedgemated to crank by DPR
Custom pressure plate and clutch by CAT (local)
90.5 "Berg special" Cima pistons & thick barrels
Barrels cut down on engine side for old 90.5 OD
Pistons machined for double snap rings
Total Seal 2nd rings
Scat 5.5 VW journal H beam rods
10MM CB studs & case savers
CB straight cuts
Engle custom ground FK10/FK87 on 114 centers
CB lightweight lifters
Berg chrome moly push rods
JayCee spring push rod tubes
Pauter 1.4 rockers
CB CNC street eliminators 44 X 37.5 hand massaged
Titanium retainers
LS1 springs
CB lash caps
Berg 1-5/8 header
Moroso spiral muffler
Berg sump
Cow magnet
O'Berg filter
CB oil cooler bypass
Huge Seatrab oil cooler
Oil bypass thermostat
Moroso Accumulator
Berg bypass pump cover
28MM oil pump from Berg
Dual welded fans with custom shrouds and reworked OEM flaps
Autorotor 3150 1.5 liter twin screw supercharger
Bugpack modular crank hub with 5" pulley
Custom 8MM X 2" gilmer pulleys & idler
48 tooth crankshaft pulley / 1-40 & 1-36 tooth supercharger
Air box from a 2002 Dodge Ram 2500 Cummins Diesel
K&N filter
Infinity Q45 90MM MAF
Honeycomb cells at the MAF inlet to help flow imbalances
Infinity Q45 90MM throttle body
CUstom intake from TB to supercharger
Procharger bypass valve
Custom water to air intercooler
Ford OEM intercooler pump & resevoir
Kenne Bell intercooler radiator
Custom plenum with sneeze valve and trumpet style runner outlets
Custom bent runners from 1.5" ID 16 guage
Custom made intake ends from 1/2 CB CNC manifolds & 1.5" ID tubing
Doubleday injector holders converted to fuel rail style feed
65# FAST low impedance fuel injectors
Stainless marine canister style pre fuel pump filter
Wlabro GSL392 fuel pump
LS1 10 micron post fuel pump filter
MagnaFuel 2 port EFI regulator with boost reference
Custom 36-1 trigger wheel with Mazda (Ford) VR sensor
MS2 V3.57
EDIS coil
EDIS module
4 Type K EGT thermocouples
1 AEM wideband O2
4 Type J CHT thermocouples
GM open IAT sensor X 2
GM closed temp sensor X 2
GM stepper motor idle air
Berg shorty idiot light oil temp
Industrial 16 input temp compensated thermocouple amplifier
Custom interface with 12 bit ADC and serial communications
PDA with custom software

There a couple of things that I am concerned about.

Resolution of the 90 MM MAF at low RPM. I might have to make a custom asymmetrical amplifier for it.

Creating an accurate maffactor.inc file for the installed MAF.

I was going to use a v belt with the adjustable alternator pulleys to start so I can verify cooling air flow before I had more custom pulleys made, but it dosn't look like there is going to be enough pulley wrap on the crankshaft v belt pulley.

Don't have a clue if the 65# injectors are going to be enough with E85.

Second guessing my decistion not to include an ethanol sensor.

I will cross those bridges if and when necessary.

Here is a picture of the supercharger install progress as of a few weeks ago:
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Last edited by Alexander_Monday on Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:21 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Piledriver
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Re: Type 1 twin screw supercharger build

Post by Piledriver » Mon Dec 20, 2010 1:19 am

Didn't catch the EMS you were using (or lost it in the trees, I looked)
Assuming Megasquirt...
IIRC you can use a smaller MAF and use it for part of the airflow... possibly with a progressive throttle setup of some sort.

IIRC you can also set up for alpha-N blending, so you are primarily on the TPS at small settings and MAF higher up.
It's been awhile since I looked at that.

Unfortunately i know of no mode that can use a MAP (like the secondary) down low and MAF up top.
You can log the inputs, but that's about it.

The good news is that as you have a positive displacement/Gilmer belt driven blower, your airflow is literally in lockstep with RPM at WOT, so a alpha-N setup shoudl be easier to tune than say with a Turbo... But i'm dubious it will have any advantage over a simple MAP based setup for the same reason, nor can I see much if any advantage of the MAF.

Looks very interesting in any case, good luck!
I, for one, regularly embrace our new robot overlords, as I am the guy fixing the robots...

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Alexander_Monday
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Re: Type 1 twin screw supercharger build

Post by Alexander_Monday » Mon Dec 20, 2010 9:14 am

Yes, I do plan on constructing a progressive throttle arm due to the over sized throttle body.

MS2 V3.57

In the older code there is no way to change from the factory Ford MAF table.
There is a MAF table correction but I'll be damned if I could make it give me the g/s readings I wanted for the simulated MAF voltages I gave it.
There is a MAF / MAF blend, but it works backwards to the settings.

Thank goodness Grippo has compiled a version that uses MAF for the calculations (not just converting MAF to an equivilant MAP as was the case) and moves the MAF table to an .inc file (instead of in the compiled code as was the case) and correctly allows MAF / MAP blend in either direction.

http://www.msefi.com/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=33823

and continued here

http://www.msefi.com/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=37654

Since Grippo has done the software work, the challange is creating an accurate MAF table.
Even if I have the factory MAF curve (which I do), it will not be the same unless I had all the factory duct work configured exactly as factory. (which I don't)
According to a couple of others, it is a matter of trial and error corrections to get the MAF table correct.
But, if I have to build a custom non linear amplifier (due to the fact I am using a very large MAF for the engine size) it will throw the factory curve out the window.

Just one more thing to have to overcome. As the old saying goes, if it was easy everybody would be doing it.

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Turbo Farviknugn
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Re: Type 1 twin screw supercharger build

Post by Turbo Farviknugn » Mon Dec 20, 2010 9:25 am

WOW !!!

And I have a hard time remembering LEFTY LOOSEY, RIGHTY TIGHTY !!! :lol:

Looks IMPRESSIVE !!! 8)

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turbobaja
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Re: Type 1 twin screw supercharger build

Post by turbobaja » Mon Dec 20, 2010 9:42 am

Awesome project you've got going on there Terry! looks like quite a unique setup. Some reason, even though I've seen this picture of your engine a few times now, I never realized there were going to be twin functional cooling fans, with t-stats no less. Very cool....literally. Especially burning E85. I see your problem with not enough belt wrap around the crank to drive the cooling fans. And it looks like the body of the blower and it's mounting brackets reach out past the profile of the single groove pulley on your crank....kinda makes for a tricky problem to solve. I was thinking maybe you could drive just one cooling fan directly from the crank and drive the other fan from the crank-driven fan, straight across, or something to that effect. I can't see a way to do it w/out at least one idler/tensioner pulley though. I would imagine that the cooling fans could be safely underdriven quite a bit considering there's 2 of them and you're burning E85 also. Considering how complex your engine management is going to be, something as simple as belt routeing should be a walk in the park, right? :lol:

Do you have a goal boost level or power output range?
Karl

DON'T QUIT

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Alexander_Monday
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Re: Type 1 twin screw supercharger build

Post by Alexander_Monday » Mon Dec 20, 2010 12:19 pm

Thanks Karl

I had thought about driving the passenger side and having it drive the other as an alternative. My overall goal is to drive everything with the gilmer set up, but wanted to experiment with the drive ratio needed for adequite cooling so I don't have to have multiple pulleys made and purchase multiple belts that I won't need. If I can make the v belt system to work I might just leave it. I currently have a 5 inch v pulley on the crank to start with less RPM on the fans than stock and the stock alternator pulleys will give me some degree of ratio change with moving the shims. I have added a v belt idler that I can adjust on the drivers side since that photo was taken. It's purpose is two fold. For adjustment purposes, and the other is to clear the gilmer idler flange which the v belt just didn't quite clear as can been seen in the mock up.
V belt clearance 25 percent.jpg
That reminds me of another concern I have. What is the alternator output going to be like when driven with a smaller ratio than stock, especially at idle? With E85 I might not need much fan RPM. If need be, after conversion to gilmer drive for the fans, I could use gutted alternators and drive a small conventional alternator with the V belt. Or maybe the functional alternator could be rewound, although I would have to find someone besides the locals. When I wanted to have a 60V "90" cobalt model airplane motor rewound for my 120V drag racing belt sander the locals just didn't know what to do, so I choked (pun intended) the voltage down with a field coil from another motor. P.S. Notice the good use of teflon wrist pin buttons in this application.
Belt Sander 1.JPG
Belt Sander 2.JPG
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WickedWagens
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Re: Type 1 twin screw supercharger build

Post by WickedWagens » Mon Dec 20, 2010 9:54 pm

That is some crazy stuff you have going on there, the bug and the sander!
1968 Ghia Land Speed Car
G/CFALT 106.643 MPH 8/2016
G/CGALT 113.131 MPH 9/2016
G/CBGALT 134.606 MPH 8/2017
G/CBFALT 146.715 MPH 8/2017
G/CBGC 158.242 MPH 9/2017

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Piledriver
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Re: Type 1 twin screw supercharger build

Post by Piledriver » Mon Dec 20, 2010 10:34 pm

Required video of hot drag racing sander action... :lol:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmVpvr-a4uQ
I, for one, regularly embrace our new robot overlords, as I am the guy fixing the robots...

_INDY_
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Re: Type 1 twin screw supercharger build

Post by _INDY_ » Tue Dec 21, 2010 12:14 am

amazing setup, the sander i mean and the multiple different configurations that is awesome, and an affordable way to race lol, the bug motor is VERY cool as well

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turbobaja
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Re: Type 1 twin screw supercharger build

Post by turbobaja » Tue Dec 21, 2010 10:04 am

I'd hate to see one of those sanders jump the track and take off through the croud :shock: . Looks like a pretty good time though, probably much safer than most "motor"sports :lol: .

I'm sure you've thought of a dozen different ways to route belts and such, but I was thinking what if you drove the alternators from the pulley on the blower somehow? That would keep things simple and clean down by the crank pulley. Either a single belt over to each alt or a short belt off the blower up to an idler so you can change belt speed if needed, then out to each alt from there. It looks like the cooling fans and shrouds are off-set to match the cylinder spacing?? You could deal with that off-set with an idler shaft driven by the blower, and with a pulley on each end to line up with each alt pulley. That way you can keep the V-belts on the alternators and take advantage of their adjustability and willingness to slip a little when the engine rpms snap up/down.

Something else I was thinking about was "swiss cheesing" the cooling fans to drop weight and reduce thier output a bit. Then you can run the alternators at a good charging speed and not be forcing twice the cooling air over the cylinders/heads, and maybe they'll rev more happily with the engine too? Just some brainstorming on a boring morning at work...
Karl

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Alexander_Monday
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Re: Type 1 twin screw supercharger build

Post by Alexander_Monday » Tue Dec 21, 2010 10:07 am

Ok, Ok, the sander wins.

Unfortunatly we only get to race one a year.
From the start to the finish is 30 foot and the shutdown is 20 foot (not enough).
I built all the electronics which includes a stage, speed, & finish line beam, tree, interface, software to control it all.
With the belt sander above I took 1st 2 years and 2nd last year.
Time to upgrade the sander.
Traction is the key, I have plenty of power.
Thinking about incorporating electronic traction control.
Track.JPG
Inside Interface.JPG
Results.JPG
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Alexander_Monday
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Re: Type 1 twin screw supercharger build

Post by Alexander_Monday » Tue Dec 21, 2010 12:13 pm

turbobaja wrote:I'd hate to see one of those sanders jump the track and take off through the croud :shock: .
It happened once. We try to keep the croud back a ways when running them.
turbobaja wrote:You could deal with that off-set with an idler shaft driven by the blower, and with a pulley on each end to line up with each alt pulley. That way you can keep the V-belts on the alternators and take advantage of their adjustability and willingness to slip a little when the engine rpms snap up/down.
They are not offset from each other, but are in line with factory placement. I had thought of offseting them so the outlets were in the middle of the cylinders proper, kind of like Jake's DTM outlet lineup, but did not have a good idea how to drive them with what I have. I will have to mull around your jack shaft idea next time I am in the garage and have some car time. (probably after the holidays)

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Alexander_Monday
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Type 1 twin screw supercharger build => fuel questions

Post by Alexander_Monday » Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:54 pm

Given a clean slate on a 10 X 33 cylindrical stainless fuel tank, what would be the best location for the return?
I.E. top, midway, or bottom, and close to or away from outlet to pump?
If it makes any difference:
No feeder pump or secondary tank planned, unless someone convinces me I need it.
AN6 lines, unless the feed from tank to canister filter needs to be larger?
tank => stainless canister filter => Walbro GSL392 pump => LS1 filter => back to engine compartment => rails = > MagnaFuel regulator => back to front => tank
Also, if I end up putting in a GM flex fuel sensor where would it go in the loop?

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Chip Birks
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Re: Type 1 twin screw supercharger build => fuel questions now

Post by Chip Birks » Tue Jan 04, 2011 12:18 am

Alexander_Monday wrote:Also, if I end up putting in a GM flex fuel sensor where would it go in the loop?
as close to the first fuel rail in the loop as you can get it.

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Alexander_Monday
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Re: Type 1 twin screw supercharger build => fuel questions now

Post by Alexander_Monday » Tue Jan 04, 2011 9:06 pm

Thanks, that makes sense.

I assume that return placement must not he an issue to worry about since no one has chimed in about it.

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