68 baja build

[Ol'fogasaurus]

I hope you still have bump stops in place at each corner. I am also surprised you preferred the KYBs over the Bilsteins unless the Bilsteins were the street/OEM version which are not bad units in themselves. The old KYBs are better than OEM style (which can be basically modified rubber bands to some halfway decent units but I suspect the life span on most of them too) but they don't seemed to be valved for hard use like jumping would produce. Fox and King are pretty good from what I hear but are $$$ (not that Koni, Bilstein and other better quality "dampeners" are inexpensive).

I also don't think you want to mix coil overs with torsion bars (if that is what you were talking about) as they react at different rates and the coil-overs are basically designed as overload springs which now have to control the actions of the two different reacting springs.

Based on listening to the guys I know that are serious off-roaders coil-overs are often hard to figure out especially when you have two springs per corner. Weight of the vehicle at each corner will get you close, based on the conversations I have listened to but the who, what and where also comes into play on "picking the stack".

Lee

[Piledriver]

If you still have the Bilsteins and only broke the shafts (how, exactly?) they can probably be fixed with new shafts, which are dirt cheap. If they are not take aparts that can be fixed in a few seconds...

Bilsteins > FOA anything, they are all ~infinitely adjustable and repairable once converted to take apart.

[bikesndbugs]

If i were to put the coilovers on id pull the leaves out. Or just run them as shocks. The bilstiens i have idk if they are the right size but the shaft bent a bit and snapped because i tried to back up out of my driveway without shocks. Kybs are crap but they are firm cheap and dont break. As far as this modding shocks to be adjustable. Any videos what ezactly is involved. Also its not that i think that the kybs are better they are just cheaper.

The bilstiens being non take aparts and the foxes of course are.. the bilsteins were used off a friend and then the shaft snapped they blew oil out too. The foxes have an unknown history and one is blown with i pitted shaft. Those are 10 inch travel idk what the bilsteins are ill have to look.

[Ol'fogasaurus]

Not defending Bilsteins but any shock can fail in many ways. In cars/suspension where the shock is used as a stop or the stops have been broken or removed (the front BJ beams for example use the shocks as stops) the potential for 86ing the shocks is very high even when non-off-roading.

Anyway, my input was for knowledge only.

[bikesndbugs]

yeah bilstiens arent bad they are a good company just ive heard just bad things about their quality. the ones i have are 8 inches anyways so id rather have 10 inch ones. Ill see if my buddy has some i know he has bigger ones but they might be blown.

[Piledriver]

At one point in history, still in many folks memories, if you wanted shocks that actually worked off road, they were simply going to be yellow, or maybe green. (Both Bilstein std colors at some point)

Bilsteins can be converted to take apart in ~1 minute and rebuilt/revalved.
The only ones that are difficult are a small minority that came on cars from the factory have crimped caps rather than the std spring clip/groove setup. Even those can be reworked given a lathe.

The S6Ms had the "seal" oring oversized or made from something that swelled up and made them a PITA to get apart the first time, probably intentional. Once I figured that out and replaced it with a std oring they have come apart/gone back together numerous times in a matter of a minute or so while playing with valving etc.

You never, ever want the shock to be the bump stops, they can be set up with internal stops, but it still beats them up and limits the travel for a given shock body size. This is why I made external reservoirs for mine as it gave me the extra inch I needed, was able to move the IFP external and shorten the shock body and keep full travel.

A T3 has external bump stops built into the design, unlike a ball joint T1, which can be (and should be) modified to have them if used off road.

Bilsteins have wide teflon piston seals/guides so they don't tear the bores up.
Fox and most other "off road" shock manufacturers essentially copied Bilsteins designs once their patents expired.
The apples have not fallen far from the tree since...

KYB has a sealing oring on the piston, but no guide, any side load will cause metal piston to bore contact.
They can be vonverted to take apart, but not revalved easily due to the ultra cheap valve/piston design.
They saved money at any cost, at your expense, but you get what you pay for. Sometimes.

Note that a Fox 2.0 has a 46mm bore, just like Bilsteins std shocks.
Some parts are probably still swappable, Bilstein has far more piston choices.
Penskes and many Ohlins are also 46mm bore as well... Many racing shocks in use have interesting combinations of various manufactureres parts inside.

There are LOTS of videos on youtube as to rebuilding shocks.
The "special" tools required can all be made cheaply/quickly by hand.
(shaft and tube clamps are the biggies)

[Ol'fogasaurus]

A very good post Pile, good job!

Lee

[bikesndbugs]

agreed very informative i never realized that. ill see if my friend has some 10 inch Bilstein and see if i can find my foxes they are somewhere in the garage. Its looking like ill have to do some sort of rebuild with either some Bilstein or fox shocks. Could i run coilovers on a stock beam with lets say allthread through rods and then set up the cage to support it? Or just try to rebuild some bilstien monotubes but arent those high pressure gas so theyd have to be recharged? ANd i am aware no bumps is very bad i plan on running them when the cage gets done.

[Ol'fogasaurus]

Sorry, but in my opinion All-thread is not strong enough for what loads could be applied to them. I've heard of it being used but in my opinion it is too suspect for me to not say something against using it for what you are considering. If they were rolled thread.... I doubt it but fully threaded rods/materials, like fasteners, are not as strong as a shank/rod with threads outside of the load/working areas.

Lee

[bikesndbugs]

Sorry, but in my opinion All-thread is not strong enough for what loads could be applied to them. I've heard of it being used but in my opinion it is too suspect for me to not say something against using it for what you are considering. If they were rolled thread.... I doubt it but fully threaded rods/materials, like fasteners, are not as strong as a shank/rod with threads outside of the load/working areas.

Lee

ok im just not familiar with how the through rods work. Pulled out my foxes today the one is blown and missing shock oil im assuming this is because the shaft is pitted. pulled it apart the shock oil looked hideous. gotta figure out what coils are on it im not sure and i might just run them as smooth bodies so i don't have to go through rod. just a thought. Rebuilding the shocks seems like the cheapest and best option right now. SO how will my arms do with coil overs. ANd what thickness do i need for suspension stops?

[Piledriver]

Lotsa reputable places sell Fox parts, esp in SoCal.
You can also get Bilstein shafts and other parts, many (all?) of the off road Bilsteins are made there.
2.0 shafts are cheap.(in general, any non-adjustable shaft is reasonably priced, as are all the rebuild parts)

Those 9" take aparts at the shock-shop are $50, "dry" so you must//get to pick your oil/pistons and shim stacks, but still <$100 per shock for a full custom coil-over ready 46mm steel take-apart racing shock. If you need 10" put resis on them and buy 10" shafts? The FOA and IIRC King resis/hoses are ~cheap, and there is little for them to screw up.

Saw an article awhile back that compared mfrs shocks, the Bilstein shafts core was ~ as hard as a good drill bit, and then hard chromed... The Fox shafts were also good, but not quite as hard and lacked the extra corrosion resistance.

FOA shock shafts were made from Lego, painted silver (I jest, a little) very soft material.

[Ol'fogasaurus]

travis, I hope this is an answer to the question you asked.

http://www.mooreparts.com/vw-trailing-a ... axle-beam/

This is a stock width through rod for a VW front beam. Notice that is it a solid beam that is threaded at each end. Also notice the locking units with locks. The price of All-thread is probably not this much but it isn’t cheap either and you would still have to figure out a locking device.

It is easy to do: remove the trailing arms, take out the center grub screw and jam nut then remove the spring stacks. The through rods are then installed sans (I think) the grub screw and jam nut but you would still want to seal the area from water and other foreign materials.

All-thread is useful but not in this case as far as I am concerned. When in compression situation the all-thread rod could bend. Granted you would still have the square hole in the middle of the beam to stop some flexing but there is still unsupported area of All-thread between the center and the ends of the trailing arms. The all-thread is still going to be weak in a stretch (bend?) condition such as when you would land on one wheel rather than a flat landing.

viewtopic.php?f=28&t=113703&start=585

As you might remember I am planning on locating the remote turning brake cylinders due to room problems on the tunnel because the seats will block a lot of the room on the tunnel (look at the top picture on the page shown in the URL. I can’t post off Photobucket hence the URL). In this case I am going to use All-thread but putting it in a thick walled tube to control flex under compression conditions. Loading on the turning brakes can be severe but not nearly as much as on a suspension situation.

The other thing to be considered has to do with what happens when the torsion stack comes out and that is: how is the car is now suspended. There are a couple of types of coil over shocks (the rest of the world uses the word “dampener” which is a better descriptive term as to what they really do) with the cheaper one being developed more of an overload “coil over shock” which is designed to be a “helper spring” to the main suspension component… not designed as a main spring with a quality HD type of shock. Also, as I said, the shocks are not really designed even for mild off-road use although I have seen them used that way many times and not very often successful either… they do have their limitations.

The coil-overs like Fox and other reputable shock manufactures make (getting old is no fun as calling up names and other words often take a while) are properly designed for both spring rates and shock valving both before and after installing.

There are also other types of suspension that is out there to be used which could be even worse than the “helper spring” units.

Your questions are good and you are getting good advice from a lot of different people. It is good to see you considering the input out and thinking things out… not dismissing them out of hand and going in a singular direction… Good Job!

[Piledriver]

I have also seen setups like that with a proper thrust washer (needle bearing style) at each end.
That is the ideal setup.

I have personally only seen all thread used on slammed bugs/on road only, it might be OK for that.
They basically have no suspension travel anyway, and generally run on the bump stops (or bottomed out shocks)

'ol Fog posted some weld on hook stops for BJ arms awhile back, I suspect Moores or similar sell them as kits.

[Ol'fogasaurus]

viewtopic.php?f=28&t=136514&p=1240980&h ... s#p1240980

The third from the bottom shows the posts: “It is 22mm/0.870 dia. round stock that I cut to 3 ½” long. The hook and pin beam kits use something like a 3” long piece of round stock but I would rather have some extra to play with“, the dimensions for the hook being on the bottom post. There might be some finish work with the dimensions shown to tailor it to your beam, posts and trailing arm dimensions.

Where you set the post is pretty much up to you but I recommend it being halfway between the two trailing arms and close to the front of the shock tower allowing for the doublers to be added. The washer could be bent over the bend in the shock tower some but not too much as you do need that extra material if you are going to play hard.

This info is from a Ball-joint beam build but I don’t see any reason why a similar setup could work with a K&L build as it is, in some ways, located similar to the stock K&L stops. I have a K&L beam at home where the stops have been broken off by a hard hit or two. The same idea in this beam build should be easily adapted to the K&L beam build.

viewtopic.php?f=28&t=136514&start=300

(the 9th post down) This is a change to the original hook and post suspension stops that I am going with on the beam build I have in process. Cheaper, easier and hopefully just as strong.

[bikesndbugs]

IM aware of these helper coil overs and all that . The ones I snapped now need a shaft and even with a resi they would be too short as they'd only be 9 inch travel when i can grab these
Fox 10 inch travel coilover with resi they both need rebuilds and one needs a shaft and they both need to be revaulved im assuming. How would i know the spring rating of the coils? does it say? THey might just be used without the coil for now. fox happens to be down the street from my school so i might run them by just for some suggestions on valving and such.

IMAG0830-450x800.jpg

IMAG0832-450x800.jpg

IMAG0837-450x800.jpg

this is the snapped bilstein i can assume its already been beat up because the bottom eye was rewelded on. I do see how they are rebuildable now but they are charged so how does taking them apart go. these arent gonna get used.

For stops i planned on doing a plate stops like dusty but hook and rod may work. I saw some stops with a nut welded to the arm and a bolt would hit the other arm this creates an adjustable stop i liked it but cant find it again.

the through rods are making sense and it would be good weld a washer on the end of the arm anyways those through rods aren't cheap. MY leafs might be more beat up on one side as when i punch the breaks the right side dips harder my friend says it feels like it leans anyways.

completely off topic but thats the stick welder i ended up with and those are some of my aluminum tig wleds

IMAG0836-450x800.jpg

IMAG0835-450x800.jpg