68 baja build

[Ol'fogasaurus]

Yes, tire size and width, wall design, material, el al all come into the mix. Difficult isn't it. How many fuel tanks do you know are baffled?

[bikesndbugs]

Difficult isn't it. How many fuel tanks do you know are baffled?

not 100 percent sure on what you mean. right now i have a stock tank. so no baffles someday id like a little more capacity but for now just stock

[Ol'fogasaurus]

Travis, you seem to be pretty bright: my point was that what we have been talking about is just part of a bigger, more whole problem. I want you to think in a broader band.

This is the way I was brought up and where I worked it was sooooo much more involved. I was only a few weeks on the job when a sudden design review meeting was held at my desk. I had been told at the end of each day to run a copy of my work (the drafting film I was using was 11 feet long) but I had forgotten to before I left the night before. Anyway three men with big voices plus the engineer surrounded my desk looking at my drawing (what I felt was yelling) and all talking at the same time and drawing with all types of pencils on my drawing to make their points. I tried to shrunk away and started to leave but the engineer grabbed me and, laughing, told me to stay and learn something which I did and which I did. It, and other things like that, opened my way of thinking about things. In later years I was fortunate to be asked to problem solving meetings which was another way of learning.

Nothing is that simple... as you are starting to find out.

Lee

[bikesndbugs]

Travis, you seem to be pretty bright: my point was that what we have been talking about is just part of a bigger, more whole problem. I want you to think in a broader band.

This is the way I was brought up and where I worked it was sooooo much more involved. I was only a few weeks on the job when a sudden design review meeting was held at my desk. I had been told at the end of each day to run a copy of my work (the drafting film I was using was 11 feet long) but I had forgotten to before I left the night before. Anyway three men with big voices plus the engineer surrounded my desk looking at my drawing (what I felt was yelling) and all talking at the same time and drawing with all types of pencils on my drawing to make their points. I tried to shrunk away and started to leave but the engineer grabbed me and, laughing, told me to stay and learn something which I did and which I did. It, and other things like that, opened my way of thinking about things. In later years I was fortunate to be asked to problem solving meetings which was another way of learning.

Nothing is that simple... as you are starting to find out.

Lee

ive sort of got 2 different parts of me. The just do it and see if it works and call it good side and the side where i can actually get very deep into design and how things work with a little bit of explaining here and there. I mean the stiffness of my front end goes into braking as does psi shoe adjustment how much gas i have and many other things. My understanding of these things is there its just do i apply it and often i ask here just to see if anyone with a similar setup has done it. As i trust experience as you cant really beat it. you can think all day long but nothing will compare to doing it and i cant drive and my car is at a friends house so getting anything done is a lot of planning currently. Like with how im planning my cage with doorbars on the back of the "a" pillar to support any front end flex and wanting to tie into the tunnel as it then becomes one whole thing rather than a buggy frame with a bug body an d pan kinda on it. Allowing it to flex and work as a whole rather than 2 separate pieces. those door bars are probably way overengineering the car but i like the piece of mind also will make the car substantially safer if im ever t-boned by someone running a red light.


I think i might just try the 19mm wheel cyls on all 4 and see how it goes. Still unsure about the amount of play in it i will try to get a video or measurment on exactly how much. IM aware vw engineered a little bit in but this has alot.

[Piledriver]

The fact that its jacked up and has larger tires screws up everything on brake bias, the only way to be sure is experiment or carefully study the mistakes of others.. which is usually far cheaper and less painful.

[Ol'fogasaurus]

The fact that its jacked up and has larger tires screws up everything on brake bias, the only way to be sure is experiment or carefully study the mistakes of others.. which is usually far cheaper and less painful.

(giggle) I can agree with that! As the CG moves higher balance (lacking a better word) changes. That why road racers don't need seat warmers as there asses are often a sneeze short of dragging on the pavement. (no insult intended)

Travis, I suspect that planning vs doing can often have different results which is good as long as the Ego is not involved. I see it constantly as reality gets intended then plans often have to change. Nothing wrong with that. One of the reasons you tack things together before fink welding; even then....

Look at how the side rails on a sand rail/rail buggy are designed; the way the bridging is done. Not all of them are correct but it is the bridging concept you are looking for: the tying of the front beam to the A-pillar, the A-pillar connections top and sides to the B-pillar then the B-pillar connections to the torsion tube plus diagonals if and when needed. The engine cage is connected in last. There is a lot of side to side connections in there also.

[bikesndbugs]

The fact that its jacked up and has larger tires screws up everything on brake bias, the only way to be sure is experiment or carefully study the mistakes of others.. which is usually far cheaper and less painful.

(giggle) I can agree with that! As the CG moves higher balance (lacking a better word) changes. That why road racers don't need seat warmers as there asses are often a sneeze short of dragging on the pavement. (no insult intended)

Travis, I suspect that planning vs doing can often have different results which is good as long as the Ego is not involved. I see it constantly as reality gets intended then plans often have to change. Nothing wrong with that. One of the reasons you tack things together before fink welding; even then....

Look at how the side rails on a sand rail/rail buggy are designed; the way the bridging is done. Not all of them are correct but it is the bridging concept you are looking for: the tying of the front beam to the A-pillar, the A-pillar connections top and sides to the B-pillar then the B-pillar connections to the torsion tube plus diagonals if and when needed. The engine cage is connected in last. There is a lot of side to side connections in there also.

yea

Untitled drawing.jpg

scale is way off but thats what im thinking with the lower tubes do diagonals from the clamps to the tunnel then from the upper tubes right outside the firewall to the tunnel
then have the door bars ending at the seat mounting tubes. rear seat access is gonna suck and im not very happy about that maybe if i only do the a pillar door bar and leave the b pillar one out but that would be really weird. as far as welding around tubes if i have to ill chop the body out and reweld it as i need to paint it anyways. and i have a sheet of 18 ga i used for the floors

[Ol'fogasaurus]

Interesting! I'll have to give it some thought. With the scale that far off the side view looks to be more off than it probably is. The door bar c/b less complicated (an "X" for exampled and the double "V"/triangle in the front could be as simple as a diagonal or as complicated as an "X" going to the lower tube of the beam. Remember to accommodate the steering and spindle moving the tie-rods as they move around.

I'd like Dusty at least weigh into this one if not a bunch of others. Again how and where I ride is way different than you and others do; my suggestion was for a thought for a "bridging" exercise which you did. Good job!

What program are you using to sketch with? Does it draw 3D? I wonder if there is a 3D scan available to use for something like this.

[Piledriver]

Don't let you (temporarily) broke leg make you reduce side protection.
You can get it over a lot more than that. (once healed)
Play with some PVC pipe or cardboard shipping tube or such to get a "real" 3D idea of what is manageable at the door.

[Ol'fogasaurus]

Thanks Pile.

Travis, I think I owe you an apology. I went on "automatic" when you asked the question: Since I am not degreed or licensed as a PE or PT I could not tell someone what to do (it was supposed to be their design in the first place but, when asked, I could give ideas or direction to where to find the info to get started [if needed]) but could only advise them or mentor them (I could stop their work though if they didn't adhere to the rules of the company, FAA and other controlling bodies. Another thing I quickly found out was that if I told them how to do things they did it and didn't learn anything so advising or directing to where the info might lay was what I did). When teaching is was pretty much the same way as I was teaching a pre-hiring, e.g., retraining course to people who were already experienced but in different fields of engineering techs (the new term instead of drafter that has been applied since CAD and CAD/CAM came on the scene).

What you did is what I said to do (literally, and again I apologize) and you did it correctly. Using the idea of a sand rail had a reason but I was remiss in talking about that as the discussion would have ended up being a way too complicated of a post.

cagesamplesW[1].jpg

This is a basic cage design someone (I think it was Dusty) posted several years ago and it is a good thing to follow. The side bars you drew were not too bad but you need to re-think egress as Pile said. Remember that the back seat is going to be hard to access with the B-pillar in the way so you need to consider that; you did supports for the bends in the door area which is good.

Diagonals down from the top of the B-pillar of the cage ending (preferringly) at the rear torsion bar (if you don't do this then be sure to add the connectors' between the pan and the rear torsion bar for additional support there but....

The front cage tying to the front beam allowing for steering (upgrades at some time) clearance and to support the beam/pan head. An "X" between the upper two tube there might not be a bad idea if they can be done (I am adding some additional support based on your past history that you have talked about). It is something you are seeing more on rails to stop the tubes from flexing side to side or torqueing of the body and pan. If the frame head was gone (I don't recommend it on the street necessarily) then an "X" there too.

The bottom of the cage, as you were going to do, has a tube that follows the sides of the pan that the hoops attach to. An "X" on the rear hoop to stop a side hit (such as a roll-over) causing the cage to fold in the direction of the hit and adding a horizontal bar for the upper straps of a 4 o4 5 point harness to attach to. I still think you would be wise to make a good solid3" body lift as the tube on the floor isn't going to give that much support to the pan and I seem to remember that the top of your Baja might already have been compromised (dents....?). The top of the body is where all the loading get re-directed around the car.

cagesamplesW[1].jpg

This shows tubes replacing the tunnel but remember that in the rear of the tunnel, where it spreads out, is where your title numbers are and if you mess with that you could be in deep do-do. (I hope the pictures stay in order). I also have seen double tubes done here. For street I don't recommend doing this but since you brought it up.

I hope this helps some.

[bikesndbugs]

What program are you using to sketch with? Does it draw 3D? I wonder if there is a 3D scan available to use for something like this.

this is just google draw totally on the internet as currently im stuck with a cromebook that cant have any real programs if i had the option right now i would have made it in a cad program.
https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/1E_J ... Deub0/edit
editing rights are on to anyone so a tube can be added by anyone.

Interesting! I'll have to give it some thought. With the scale that far off the side view looks to be more off than it probably is. The door bar c/b less complicated (an "X" for exampled and the double "V"/triangle in the front could be as simple as a diagonal or as complicated as an "X" going to the lower tube of the beam. Remember to accommodate the steering and spindle moving the tie-rods as they move around.

thats why i dont have an x up front for the tie rod clearance. the tube straight between the two would be at the firewall

Don't let you (temporarily) broke leg make you reduce side protection.
You can get it over a lot more than that. (once healed)
Play with some PVC pipe or cardboard shipping tube or such to get a "real" 3D idea of what is manageable at the door.

i daily drive this so total diagonal doorbars would be hard. the pvc is a good idea ricosuave doesnt even have a doorbar and has a tube front end so i figured how mine was would be better than that.

What you did is what I said to do (literally, and again I apologize) and you did it correctly. Using the idea of a sand rail had a reason but I was remiss in talking about that as the discussion would have ended up being a way too complicated of a post.



This is a basic cage design someone (I think it was Dusty) posted several years ago and it is a good thing to follow. The side bars you drew were not too bad but you need to re-think egress as Pile said. Remember that the back seat is going to be hard to access with the B-pillar in the way so you need to consider that; you did supports for the bends in the door area which is good.

Diagonals down from the top of the B-pillar of the cage ending (preferringly) at the rear torsion bar (if you don't do this then be sure to add the connectors' between the pan and the rear torsion bar for additional support there but....

The front cage tying to the front beam allowing for steering (upgrades at some time) clearance and to support the beam/pan head. An "X" between the upper two tube there might not be a bad idea if they can be done (I am adding some additional support based on your past history that you have talked about). It is something you are seeing more on rails to stop the tubes from flexing side to side or torqueing of the body and pan. If the frame head was gone (I don't recommend it on the street necessarily) then an "X" there too.

cagesamplesW[1].jpg

This shows tubes replacing the tunnel but remember that in the rear of the tunnel, where it spreads out, is where your title numbers are and if you mess with that you could be in deep do-do. (I hope the pictures stay in order). I also have seen double tubes done here. For street I don't recommend doing this but since you brought it up.

I hope this helps some.

im gonna keep the tunnel all the way out till the panhead even leaving about 3 inches out past the firewall to allow tie ins.
x between upper two tubes cant happen as i have a tank there. the x in the b pillar wasnt planned for access sake as this was meant to be a simple cage just with a tube front end. b pilllar will go to torsion
as far as keeping the front end from twisting. the diagonals to the tunnel from the lowwer mounts and from the uppers to the tunnel is all i can do for that. many cars have similar so im not too worried. there is a possibility of doing an x that starts at the upper beam tubes and ends at the lowers on the firewall therefore you have triangulation on 3 planes. this would work well but possibly cause issues with the tank so ill have to check

[Ol'fogasaurus]

As far as the "X"s up front goes would be if you end up replacing the bent frame head.

On the 3D scan goes one of the first 3D Scans done using a VW but is unusable (I looked it up after I did my response). It is of the outside only. Find a side view of a VW then hand sketch your ideas of your cage. You'll get a better idea of proportions that way. If I remember correctly some photoediting programs allow you to convert a photo into a line drawing then you can trace it then copy it several times to come up with various ideas. The "A" and "B" pillars web your starting points as they s/b easiest to locate: just in front of and just behind the door.

If you were to use the vertical tube at the firewall then I would recommend a hoop on the inside against the firewall with it being more of a usable device for later additions/upgrades.

The door bar: there are ways to make them operable then lock into place and still provide protection for a side hit. The bar is another tie between the two hoops for spreading the loads out. If you make them sit/dip down too low then they don't serve as well on a side hit. Form and function here are two different things.

The front of the VW is probably the weakest part to cover structurally.

[bikesndbugs]

cage.jpg

i did that for a bit more scale with an overlay of a bug body

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1634275.jpg
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1634549.jpg

those are of dustys car but too big for this site
im going to do that diagonal into the tunnel and plan on doing something similar under the dash

As far as the "X"s up front goes would be if you end up replacing the bent frame head.

On the 3D scan goes one of the first 3D Scans done using a VW but is unusable (I looked it up after I did my response). It is of the outside only. Find a side view of a VW then hand sketch your ideas of your cage. You'll get a better idea of proportions that way. If I remember correctly some photoediting programs allow you to convert a photo into a line drawing then you can trace it then copy it several times to come up with various ideas. The "A" and "B" pillars web your starting points as they s/b easiest to locate: just in front of and just behind the door.

If you were to use the vertical tube at the firewall then I would recommend a hoop on the inside against the firewall with it being more of a usable device for later additions/upgrades.

The door bar: there are ways to make them operable then lock into place and still provide protection for a side hit. The bar is another tie between the two hoops for spreading the loads out. If you make them sit/dip down too low then they don't serve as well on a side hit. Form and function here are two different things.

The front of the VW is probably the weakest part to cover structurally.

the drawing has them lower than they most likely will be and ill probobly bring the b pillar door bar up more the a pillar is more likley to stay lower.

[Ol'fogasaurus]

Looks better

[bikesndbugs]

Looks better

also if you look at the seat in the picture the b pillar door bar can be raised a bit based on where the seat is


this design would also allow me to tube down from the very rear to the ends of the framehorns or a trans mount. this wont happen yet but im designing the cage with that and irs as a thought to consider. the rear i use for tool storage and often have jackets and stuff back there so accessibility doesn't have to be major but there has to be enough to store and remove things without having to remove the seats

Im pretty set in on the cage design i wish i could do 3d for you guys but thats not happening.

brakes have been discussed as has cage (still waiting of dusty) now lets move towards steering. this topic i am completely unaware of. I know about the rack issues and how tit has to be center mount tie rods. i know you can center mount a box and i see people use chevy boxes sometimes. other than that i know nothing. about what i use as a shaft and what u joints how i even mount them. Is this cost effective for me?