Budget street legal rail (re)build (WARNING: pic heavy)
- GoMopar440
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Re: Budget street legal rail (re)build (WARNING: pic heavy)
I haven't been able to get out to work on the rail lately due to my back acting up. Doesn't help my knee injury is giving me heck right now as well. The knee acting up again is bothering me in a large part due to the doc telling me that I should get surgery on it.
Anyway, I just sold my dual cannons so I was able to get a speedometer for the rail with the money I got. Here's the link to the Ebay auction for the speedo. http://www.ebay.com/itm/282020995994 I'll see how well I can translate the chinglish instructions whenever it gets here.
Anyway, I just sold my dual cannons so I was able to get a speedometer for the rail with the money I got. Here's the link to the Ebay auction for the speedo. http://www.ebay.com/itm/282020995994 I'll see how well I can translate the chinglish instructions whenever it gets here.
Home made rail (street legal), 1600 DP, 34PICT-3, T3 brakes, 4-1 glass-pack exhaust, 31's in back and 7.00x15's up front. Link to build thread: viewtopic.php?f=28&t=147561&p=1227553#p1227553
- Piledriver
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Re: Budget street legal rail (re)build (WARNING: pic heavy)
Unless you want custom axle lengths, the motor will be offset about 3/4" with an 091.
That is not a showstopper in any way, esp on an open rail.
You will really not be able to see it.
That is not a showstopper in any way, esp on an open rail.
You will really not be able to see it.
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
- GoMopar440
- Posts: 258
- Joined: Sun Apr 12, 2015 8:56 am
Re: Budget street legal rail (re)build (WARNING: pic heavy)
Huh? I'm using a 5 rib 002 bus trans, not a 091. The solid mount kit I ended up getting has slots to allow me to center the trans flanges between the stub axle flanges. That's the plan, so the axle lengths will be equal from side to side. The engine will be slightly offset like you said, but there's no tinware to deal with so it won't be an issue like in a stock bug.
I'll mod the stock bug axles and use them until I can get some 2x3 arms. Then I'll be able to use the bus axles I picked up with the trans. I can run the Type 1 CV joints at the wheel until I pick up some conversion stub axles to allow me to mount up the other Type 2 CVs. The axle spline count is the same for Type 1 and 2 so everything should fit. Only slight "gotcha" might be the difference in the thickness between the two CV types.
I'll mod the stock bug axles and use them until I can get some 2x3 arms. Then I'll be able to use the bus axles I picked up with the trans. I can run the Type 1 CV joints at the wheel until I pick up some conversion stub axles to allow me to mount up the other Type 2 CVs. The axle spline count is the same for Type 1 and 2 so everything should fit. Only slight "gotcha" might be the difference in the thickness between the two CV types.
Home made rail (street legal), 1600 DP, 34PICT-3, T3 brakes, 4-1 glass-pack exhaust, 31's in back and 7.00x15's up front. Link to build thread: viewtopic.php?f=28&t=147561&p=1227553#p1227553
- Marc
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Re: Budget street legal rail (re)build (WARNING: pic heavy)
I run Bus CVs on my Beetle with Type I driveshafts - had the inner races of the CVs narrowed so they'd fit on the shorter splines. It's a road car so losing a little angularity potential due to the shorter balltracks doesn't worry me. You could instead counterbore one side of the inner race so the balltracks retain their width, it'd just be a little harder to do.GoMopar440 wrote:...Only slight "gotcha" might be the difference in the thickness between the two CV types.
I wouldn't recommend turning the shafts down to the minor diameter of the splined section because it'd create a weak point.
Thing shafts are a tiny bit shorter than Bug but have long splines, if you could find a pair of those no CV mods would be necessary.
- Piledriver
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Re: Budget street legal rail (re)build (WARNING: pic heavy)
The CVs can also be counterbored just in the middle to proper width,clearance on the inside.
I have never, ever heard of the splines in a CV joint stripping.
The outer bit where the balls run is hard as hell.
I have never, ever heard of the splines in a CV joint stripping.
The outer bit where the balls run is hard as hell.
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
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- Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2006 10:17 pm
Re: Budget street legal rail (re)build (WARNING: pic heavy)
I'm not a big fan of slots... they have their place but basically they are just big sloppy holes (as far as I am concerned too sloppy for something this important. Max hole, for structural purposes, is a class 3 hole which is hand drilled using a sharp drill; class 1 and 2 are reamed close tolerance holes). If you are going to use them then you will be putting a lot of trust in the gripping ability of your fasteners (especially re-using fasteners of unknown past history) to stop any movement; IOWs the support of the material via the motor mount has been lessened considerably.GoMopar440 wrote:Huh? I'm using a 5 rib 002 bus trans, not a 091. The solid mount kit I ended up getting has slots to allow me to center the trans flanges between the stub axle flanges. That's the plan, so the axle lengths will be equal from side to side. The engine will be slightly offset like you said, but there's no tinware to deal with so it won't be an issue like in a stock bug.
I'll mod the stock bug axles and use them until I can get some 2x3 arms. Then I'll be able to use the bus axles I picked up with the trans. I can run the Type 1 CV joints at the wheel until I pick up some conversion stub axles to allow me to mount up the other Type 2 CVs. The axle spline count is the same for Type 1 and 2 so everything should fit. Only slight "gotcha" might be the difference in the thickness between the two CV types.
Stock bug CVs angle is ~ (roughly) 12°. With stock arms and not notching the spring plate you should be able to use the stock stub axle. If you go to the 2 X 3 arms the stock CVs might work because of the longer axle changing the angle but you would have to measure the CV angles at full hang and full compression. I wouldn't chance it myself. Based on what I was just told: Thing stub axles, unless you can find some on the outside (good luck on this. When I bought my years ago they were hard to find and expensive even then), are now being substituted by other stub axles; the same with CVs or so I think I was told (a lot of phone calls by me and others).
FWIW, axle length using the stock outboard CVs is iffy at best especially if you have a spring plate notch (1/4" max with stock bug CVs and stock axles). The axles for bus into bug are about a 1/4" longer so that when the half-shaft axle slides in the CVs they don't go far enough to potentially bind. For many reasons I am not a big fan of modifying axles either. Also take into consideration of re-used stock axles. The may have been abused and taken a set in one direction and using them in the other direction (un-winding them ) can cause failure.
Lee
My opinion is worth slightly less than you paid for it.
- GoMopar440
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Re: Budget street legal rail (re)build (WARNING: pic heavy)
I don't plan of having just the bolts in the slots doing all the retention work. When I worked on large pieces of equipment in the Navy, a lot of them had to stay perfectly aligned on a ship in order to mesh with the hard plumbing. They would get holes drilled for solid tapered pins right next to each mounting bolt. Those pins got driven into place after the alignment was first set and double checked and the bolts were tightened. We'd drill a pilot hole next to the bolts and then ream those hole with an appropriately sized tapered reamer to match the pins we were using. Then the solid tapered pins would be driven into the prepared holes, with friction locking them into the holes. I had never seen or heard of one ever coming loose in the entire time I worked in that shop. I plan on doing the same thing with the slotted mount when I install it on my rail.
As far as the CVs, axles and spring plates go, I had a long discussion with the Tech guy over at Cip1 who has had first hand experience with using and abusing the parts he suggested I try. He's been running the same setup in his Baja pretty hard off road for years and hasn't found any issues yet. I'm going to be using my rail primarily as an ON road daily driver. Any trips off road will be kept short and mild as far as speed and duration go, mostly due to health issues with my back. As a result, I'm not going to be seeing the angularity issues that most others do when driving their vehicles mostly off road.
As far as axle direction (twist set) goes, if I didn't get to remove the axles myself, I have no way to knowing which way they were oriented. I gave up on trying to figure out that issue and just plan to make sure I'm carrying a complete spare axle and CV assembly with me.
The spring plates aren't notched and I don't plan on doing so.
As far as the CVs, axles and spring plates go, I had a long discussion with the Tech guy over at Cip1 who has had first hand experience with using and abusing the parts he suggested I try. He's been running the same setup in his Baja pretty hard off road for years and hasn't found any issues yet. I'm going to be using my rail primarily as an ON road daily driver. Any trips off road will be kept short and mild as far as speed and duration go, mostly due to health issues with my back. As a result, I'm not going to be seeing the angularity issues that most others do when driving their vehicles mostly off road.
As far as axle direction (twist set) goes, if I didn't get to remove the axles myself, I have no way to knowing which way they were oriented. I gave up on trying to figure out that issue and just plan to make sure I'm carrying a complete spare axle and CV assembly with me.
The spring plates aren't notched and I don't plan on doing so.
Home made rail (street legal), 1600 DP, 34PICT-3, T3 brakes, 4-1 glass-pack exhaust, 31's in back and 7.00x15's up front. Link to build thread: viewtopic.php?f=28&t=147561&p=1227553#p1227553
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Re: Budget street legal rail (re)build (WARNING: pic heavy)
I never had the opportunity to design to tapered fasteners like you are talking about. I also doubt they would be even considered for what i did for obvious reasons. I hope they work out for you.
One thing I do is to write also to the lurkers hense i often write at a more basic or detailed level than needed. I don't mean to talk down to anyone when I write.
Lee
One thing I do is to write also to the lurkers hense i often write at a more basic or detailed level than needed. I don't mean to talk down to anyone when I write.
Lee
- Marc
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Re: Budget street legal rail (re)build (WARNING: pic heavy)
Be simpler, wouldn't it, to just make some insert pieces for the slots that'd be trapped in place by flatwashers on either side of the bracket? Think old ET UniLug wheels...GoMopar440 wrote:...Then the solid tapered pins would be driven into the prepared holes...
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Re: Budget street legal rail (re)build (WARNING: pic heavy)
Marc, as i remember those wheels didn't last long as there was just too much monkey motion because of all the tolerance allowance with the fitting together of parts. Then you have to consider additional wear when abusted even a little bit. It was a universal fix to make a universal part. I never had any but i knew people who did... at least for a short while Sounded good but... I think that now days, with the CADCAM being available, that tolerances could be better controlled the there could have been back then but you still have to accommodate heat and cold induced metal movement. There other weakness was on a dark night, wen you had a flat the grew legs and meandered off into the darkness.
Slots and notches, at best, only will have one or two contact points with the fastener as it passes through the opening unless you are at either end of the slot.
I have done designs where we used slots and notches but they weren't for critical things either.
Mopar, are the slots you are talking about for fore and aft adjustment or side to side adjustment. I looked at my solid mount for a stock bug transaxle and there are slots for fore and aft adjustment but their movement potential is also controlled by the front trans mount.
I don't think this is what you were talking about but just-in-case.
I forgot to mention that I do have an 091 tied to a V6 that I could slide out and try to take some pictures of the mount if you wish.
Lee
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Re: Budget street legal rail (re)build (WARNING: pic heavy)
<=85 Porsche 924/944 stubs/CVs and even the trailing arms are same as Thing.(T4 CVs too)
The axles IIRC are same length too, or really close, all bolts into a bug with a T1 trans.
Those are a whole lot more common than Thing parts.
The 86+ 944s/968s used longer Vanagon axles and fabricated aluminum arms ~like 911s.
While that setup will also ~bolt in its not really seriously off-road worthy.
The axles IIRC are same length too, or really close, all bolts into a bug with a T1 trans.
Those are a whole lot more common than Thing parts.
The 86+ 944s/968s used longer Vanagon axles and fabricated aluminum arms ~like 911s.
While that setup will also ~bolt in its not really seriously off-road worthy.
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
- GoMopar440
- Posts: 258
- Joined: Sun Apr 12, 2015 8:56 am
Re: Budget street legal rail (re)build (WARNING: pic heavy)
I believe I've already got the rear setup pretty much all figured out, but I still appreciate all the advise so far. The solid mount kit I decided to go with has the slots under the big bolts in the ends of the horns. They allow me to move the trans side to side to get the flange to flange distance equal on each side. I also have an additional weld in mid mount that I'll have to make fit when I center the flanges. There aren't any fore and aft slots in my rear mount like the ones in the above pic of Lee's mount.Ol'fogasaurus wrote:I looked at my solid mount for a stock bug transaxle and there are slots for fore and aft adjustment but their movement potential is also controlled by the front trans mount.
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I don't think this is what you were talking about but just-in-case.
I forgot to mention that I do have an 091 tied to a V6 that I could slide out and try to take some pictures of the mount if you wish.
Lee
I'll stick with the taper pin technique to lock the rear mount in place once I have the trans where I want it. I trust that type of setup, and I know how to do it properly. I've used those slotted mag things on my first '70 Challenger a long time ago. They're way too much of a headache IMHO for the wheel adaptability they offered. I once lost a front wheel going around a corner due to those things preventing the lug nuts from being able to hold their torque.
Never again.
BTW: I just picked up a little 10'x10' canopy for $25 from the thrift store today. It's an older "some assembly required" type of canopy, not the quick pop-up type, but it was still new in the box and never assembled. I've already set it up and attached it to the side of the barn. That should give me a little bit of protection from the weather and allow me work on the rail a bit more. Just getting the canopy assembled and mounted securely was about my limit for today. I made sure to reinforce all the joints and then hard mounted one side up against the barn. The other side is tied off to a huge tree. The frame should have a good chance of surviving the winds we get, so the tarp material is my biggest concern. Time will tell if it holds together or not. I'll get a pic of it tomorrow when there's some light outside.
Home made rail (street legal), 1600 DP, 34PICT-3, T3 brakes, 4-1 glass-pack exhaust, 31's in back and 7.00x15's up front. Link to build thread: viewtopic.php?f=28&t=147561&p=1227553#p1227553
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Re: Budget street legal rail (re)build (WARNING: pic heavy)
I got a big kick on seeing your repost of my picture. I had never noticed before that the bolts, the anodized bolts and nuts, that came with the mount kit were short. I had taken one of the two original ones with me when I got the two new ones to match them up. The rule of thumb being a minimum of three heads showing.
Lee
Lee
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Re: Budget street legal rail (re)build (WARNING: pic heavy)
Needs washers as well, spreads the load over the slots.
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
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- Posts: 17733
- Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2006 10:17 pm
Re: Budget street legal rail (re)build (WARNING: pic heavy)
At the time I reassembled it it was going to be up for sale so it was lightly assembled knowing that the next owner would have to tear most of it back down to fit it to his or her self. Also the decision to use the 091 and V6, if I kept it, is or was not in the foreseeable future.
Now that I am going to keep it and hopefully finish it (what I wanted to get is no longer available) I have to fit the buggy not only to myself but to the other members of the family hoping they will keep and use it so that is why it is missing the proper fasteners and their accoutrements in places.
Now that I am going to keep it and hopefully finish it (what I wanted to get is no longer available) I have to fit the buggy not only to myself but to the other members of the family hoping they will keep and use it so that is why it is missing the proper fasteners and their accoutrements in places.