Funco SS2 Barn find

Offroad VW based vehicles have problems/insights all their own. Not to mention the knowledge gained in VW durability.

Moderators: Leatherneck, rickosuave1987

Post Reply
Ol'fogasaurus
Posts: 13218
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 1:17 am
Location: Just north of Seattle

Re: Funco SS2 Barn find

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Tue Oct 31, 2017 5:54 pm

Skid, you have to know the guys :roll:. Never really thought about until you mentioned it; it could make my steering problem on my black buggy a bit easier. Need to spend some time thinking about I guess.

User avatar
madmitch
Posts: 928
Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:41 pm
Location: Simi Valley, CA

Re: Funco SS2 Barn find

Post by madmitch » Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:47 pm

I friend of mine races Lucas oil short course. He had to get used to the oversteer when he put it on his limited buggy.
If you feel you are picking up speed you may be going downhill.

Ol'fogasaurus
Posts: 13218
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 1:17 am
Location: Just north of Seattle

Re: Funco SS2 Barn find

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:53 pm

madmitch wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:47 pm
I friend of mine races Lucas oil short course. He had to get used to the oversteer when he put it on his limited buggy.
Are you talking about electric steering?

User avatar
madmitch
Posts: 928
Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:41 pm
Location: Simi Valley, CA

Re: Funco SS2 Barn find

Post by madmitch » Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:41 pm

Ol'fogasaurus wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:53 pm
madmitch wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:47 pm
I friend of mine races Lucas oil short course. He had to get used to the oversteer when he put it on his limited buggy.
Are you talking about electric steering?
Yes
If you feel you are picking up speed you may be going downhill.

Ol'fogasaurus
Posts: 13218
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 1:17 am
Location: Just north of Seattle

Re: Funco SS2 Barn find

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:51 pm

Interesting, I'll have to talk to the guys I know that have it. Now that the subject has been brought up I think I will look into things a bit more.

Lee

User avatar
Piledriver
Moderator
Posts: 21748
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 3:01 am
Location: Van Alstyne, Texas

Re: Funco SS2 Barn find

Post by Piledriver » Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:06 am

Electric power steering got a bad rep for the reliability of certain setups (GM Chevy Cobalt etc) but most complaints are along the lines of too much power assist and limited >no "feel" or feedback, but a lot of that is in the setup, more caster and/or mechanical trail to provide more steering feedback etc on a conversion would probably help...

Many of the current units are variable assist using a wheel speed sensor or such. (variable frequency signal)
I, for one, regularly embrace our new robot overlords, as I am the guy fixing the robots...

Ol'fogasaurus
Posts: 13218
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 1:17 am
Location: Just north of Seattle

Re: Funco SS2 Barn find

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:26 am

Piledriver wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:06 am
Electric power steering got a bad rep for the reliability of certain setups (GM Chevy Cobalt etc) but most complaints are along the lines of too much power assist and limited >no "feel" or feedback, but a lot of that is in the setup, more caster and/or mechanical trail to provide more steering feedback etc on a conversion would probably help...

Many of the current units are variable assist using a wheel speed sensor or such. (variable frequency signal)
Pile, what you are saying is part of the reason I haven't gone that way. With "rails" the angle that the front beams are set at is not always at the roughly 6 degree angle then you add big dia tires (rake) in the rear throwing the caster even more off. Rails, being so light in front and for other reasons, usually should have a bit more caster added if I remember correctly.

The angle that the steering box is set at case to be determined by a lot of trial and error cycling it and the suspension through the suspension travel bough straight forward and with the suspension in both rift and left touring positions; I would suggest doing it with the torsion leaves removed or limit the torsion stack.

I till try find a Pittman arm and mark it where I remember the change needs to be mait for center steering.

I was going to write some of this up but not sure now.

Life isn't simple is it.

A couple of other things I thought about. Not all rails allowed for longer travel or, especially, center steer, which is why you see so many rails with the tie-rods encased in pipe.

The big thing is that you are dealing with two arcs; the steering arc and the suspension arc and you have to place the steering box to accommodate both. Just part of the puzzle.
Lee

My opinion is worth slightly less than what you paid for it.

User avatar
madmitch
Posts: 928
Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:41 pm
Location: Simi Valley, CA

Re: Funco SS2 Barn find

Post by madmitch » Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:15 am

And another part of the equation is wheel offset. Centerline started making the bubble front 5 bolt wheel with the same offset as the stock vw wheel to reduce feedback into the steering. I ran these wheels back in the 80s on my class 1 car and it was a big improvement. I am running front wheels with more offset on my 5/1600 car today with more offset and more impact to the steering especially in rocky sections. I also have a large diameter steering whell for increasing leverage.
If you feel you are picking up speed you may be going downhill.

Ol'fogasaurus
Posts: 13218
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 1:17 am
Location: Just north of Seattle

Re: Funco SS2 Barn find

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:07 pm

madmitch wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:15 am
And another part of the equation is wheel offset. Centerline started making the bubble front 5 bolt wheel with the same offset as the stock vw wheel to reduce feedback into the steering. I ran these wheels back in the 80s on my class 1 car and it was a big improvement. I am running front wheels with more offset on my 5/1600 car today with more offset and more impact to the steering especially in rocky sections. I also have a large diameter steering whell for increasing leverage.
The off-set wheel problem is a big deal. I should have thought of it and put it into the post also. They can block getting into and through tight places but it is their being hard on the wheel bearings and potentially hard on the spindles also as you are putting the loads so far outboard away from the bearings and pivots. The same problem on the street; we learned that back on the 50's but kept on doing it as it looked so cool! :oops:

The large dia. steering wheel can be good for leverage as that is why the old cars, before power steering really came into use, have them but they can be a pain when getting in and for some... they block they're view forward :roll: .

Good point Mitch!

User avatar
madmitch
Posts: 928
Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:41 pm
Location: Simi Valley, CA

Re: Funco SS2 Barn find

Post by madmitch » Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:55 pm

race cars have a steering wheel QD and the large diameter steering wheel doesn’t block my view. The driver’s seat is mounted pretty hi up. The only reason I run them on the Baja is for front end stability as we cannot use a widened beam.
There is also a big difference between a full body Baja and a rear engine buggy. There is a lot more front end weight on the Baja. It is almost impossible to steer using the throttle as the power just isn’t there. Steering on the buggy is pointing it in the right direction as the front wheels aren’t on the ground as much. Just my personal understanding.
If you feel you are picking up speed you may be going downhill.

Ol'fogasaurus
Posts: 13218
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 1:17 am
Location: Just north of Seattle

Re: Funco SS2 Barn find

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:54 am

"There is also a big difference between a full body Baja and a rear engine buggy. There is a lot more front end weight on the Baja. It is almost impossible to steer using the throttle as the power just isn’t there. Steering on the buggy is pointing it in the right direction as the front wheels aren’t on the ground as much. Just my personal understanding."
leecar30 - Copy.jpg
On the big steering wheels I was talking about older cars with heavy manual steering and preset height bench seats (you ever see an old lady peering through the steering when and the lower part of the windshield using the hood ornament to aim the car :roll: ). We needed the leverage as you said but when you chopped and channeled a Model A for example, the smaller diameter steering wheel does work well.

On short wheel base glass and tube buggies such as my blue one the stock suspension is too stiff; the same with longer wheelbase rails also. On my black buggy I am trying to decide which way of taking some stiffness out of the beam and still have it work right. Short wheel base buggies (~80") are twitchy especially off-road but they do do tight corners better than the 95" stock wheel base cars and buggies. They can get the front end thrown around due to no weight up front.
Dune house diary 080.jpg
"Steering" style tires and turning brakes make such a big difference in so many ways.

Bajas also have the body and, especially, the top of the body to spread heavy loads around which a glass buggy does not have so it is more flexible which can drive pan damage.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Ol'fogasaurus
Posts: 13218
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 1:17 am
Location: Just north of Seattle

Re: Funco SS2 Barn find

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Sat Nov 04, 2017 5:54 pm

"I till try find a Pittman arm and mark it where I remember the change needs to be mait (sic) (made) for center steering."

I almost didn't get it done. Between other things going on I almost forgot. Also, it took me over an hour just to get this off an old steering box then almost the same amount of time in the blast (glass) cabinet to get it cleaned up so I could use it.
IMG_0908.JPG
This is what I remembered the changes to the Pittman arm had to have happen to it. When I put the tape down and measured it the top piece looked and measure square so I don't know if it is a typical camera trick or what happened but you have the idea of what I remembered having to be done. (I went out and checked things again and it is correct on the Pittman arm so it is a camera trick.

I used the split in the arm and the splines machined into it with the center being the center of the splines in the steering box.

As you can see there is an off-set to the arm and I think the high side is on the driver's side but it has been so long I forget now. I think I saw this done over 20 years ago. I also seemed to remember that the cut was made in the high side so the higher up hole could be slid down to be even with the other side then beveled on both sides then properly welded in place. I don't know if it was retempered but with that thickness...

(disclaimer) I personally do not take any responsibility for the idea, it was posted just for information of what I remembered I had seen. Not something I think I myself would try.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
Piledriver
Moderator
Posts: 21748
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 3:01 am
Location: Van Alstyne, Texas

Re: Funco SS2 Barn find

Post by Piledriver » Sat Nov 04, 2017 9:35 pm

Some of the electric power steering setups go in the column.... Work with the stock setup from the steering coupler down.
I, for one, regularly embrace our new robot overlords, as I am the guy fixing the robots...

User avatar
madmitch
Posts: 928
Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:41 pm
Location: Simi Valley, CA

Re: Funco SS2 Barn find

Post by madmitch » Sat Nov 04, 2017 10:26 pm

The original vw design compensates for unequal tie rod length. You are correct in making the pitman arm holes in a T shape when mounting the box in the center of the beam.
If you feel you are picking up speed you may be going downhill.

Ol'fogasaurus
Posts: 13218
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 1:17 am
Location: Just north of Seattle

Re: Funco SS2 Barn find

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Sat Nov 04, 2017 10:41 pm

Piledriver wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2017 9:35 pm
Some of the electric power steering setups go in the column.... Work with the stock setup from the steering coupler down.
I've posted some pix of what you are talking about, I just have to steering.so I can repost. There is also a manual unit that, depend on which way you install it will speed up or slow down the steering.

Post Reply