Tim's Green Bug...

Offroad VW based vehicles have problems/insights all their own. Not to mention the knowledge gained in VW durability.

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TimS
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Tim's Green Bug...

Post by TimS » Wed Jan 05, 2011 2:03 am

Hello all,

I've been working on a way to strengthen my engine mounts and could use your input.

Goals:
1. Fits my skills and tools (square tube mitered or straight round tube)
2. Able to remove engine and trans together with pallet jack (removable crossmember)
3. use subaru engine mount locations. Delete rear trans mount.
4. Provide flat surface 1.5" below the frame horns for skid plate mounting.
5. Cheap.

Please forgive my CAD program... it's a little dated.

Image
Inside cage (minimal)
Image

So... My plan.

Use a 1.5 x .120 (green) sqaure tube under the existing frame horns extending to approx 15" in front of the torsion tube angled under the tunnel and attached with direct weld where able but also .120 bar to side of existing frame horns. Strong attatchment bracket on rear of frame horns. Add a 1" square tube (unknown thickness, red) under tension to rear roll bar mount plate. Another 1" sqaure tube (under compression, blue) to top of frame horn in order to stiffen rear roll bar mount and support weight. Future plan might be to tie the front of this beam into the main hoop behind the front seats with diagnal bracing.

Engine mount will be with urethane bushing (yellow) built into it's own crossmember that rides on top of green tube and attatches with two bolts from top to bottom. It will also attatch sit level with the main beam and attatch to the skid plates. Engine load will be caltelevered out by approx 3 inches.

Purple tube to shock mount... I was thinking that this tube would support the triangle (blue,red,green) in the lateral direction. And maybe, with future bracing become a bump stop. I could delete this purple tube and run a tension member (flat bar)across and over the transmission to the other rear cage mount to serve the same purpose of supporting the triangle.

The rear cage will attatch to the end of the green tube, but I would like to support most, if not all, of the load without it.

Okay :roll: It's backyard engineered, but it just might work.

Any thoughts on tube size/thickness, overall design, etc. Please speak up. Is this overkill, not strong enough? I'm going to buy some steel on Thursday.

Bonus question. :twisted: .. If I used a 2" beam, do you think I could delete the frame horns altogether?
Last edited by TimS on Wed Apr 04, 2012 5:14 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Don’t ever yield your gift of dream; Your knack for gumption, too. For “It’s the crazy ones that have all the fun," if dreamers yearn to do.

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TimS
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Re: Subaru engine mount... project.

Post by TimS » Fri Jan 07, 2011 9:40 am

Well... The only way to get any advise in an online forum is to screw something up, so here is my best efforts.

Cleansing the palette...
Image

My way of staying on schedule... If summer comes, the buckets collapse.
Image
Don’t ever yield your gift of dream; Your knack for gumption, too. For “It’s the crazy ones that have all the fun," if dreamers yearn to do.

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winifredevw
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Re: Subaru engine mount... project.

Post by winifredevw » Fri Jan 07, 2011 5:19 pm

It looks like your current setup was solid mounted, don't mix and match urethane with solid mounts, do one or the other. I'm not too keen on eliminating the bell-housing mount, how are you going to mount the transmission nose?

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TimS
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Re: Subaru engine mount... project.

Post by TimS » Fri Jan 07, 2011 6:23 pm

winifredevw wrote:It looks like your current setup was solid mounted, don't mix and match urethane with solid mounts, do one or the other. I'm not too keen on eliminating the bell-housing mount, how are you going to mount the transmission nose?
Thanks for your input.

One of my main objectives was to get rid of the bell housing mount. :? The reason is that if I took a big hig in the rear, the engine trans system would give instead of tweaking it. That is how it's mounted in the stock subaru (nose of trans and engine mount). It actually balances really well. Maybe I could use the "dog ears" for the bellhousing mount?

Front mount is urethane inside 1.5" .120 tube (from 10 degree kit), rear side mounts will each be same size, same compound as front.

EDIT--> There is about 40 lbs on front mount, balance on rears.
Don’t ever yield your gift of dream; Your knack for gumption, too. For “It’s the crazy ones that have all the fun," if dreamers yearn to do.

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Re: Subaru engine mount... project.

Post by winifredevw » Fri Jan 07, 2011 7:49 pm

Have you seen Big Dave's mounts yet? It's awfully close to what you're describing.

viewtopic.php?f=28&t=124194&p=998528&hi ... nt#p998528

The nose on a VW trans is notoriously weak, a good mid-mount would be the minimum I would even consider if eliminating the bell-housing mount.

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Re: Subaru engine mount... project.

Post by Leatherneck » Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:29 pm

There are several mid tranny and bell housing mounts in the build threads. Yes look at bigdaves, Skidmark, winifredevw, hedrock, there are more.

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TimS
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Re: Subaru engine mount... project.

Post by TimS » Sat Jan 08, 2011 3:17 am

winifredevw wrote:The nose on a VW trans is notoriously weak, a good mid-mount would be the minimum I would even consider if eliminating the bell-housing mount.
Ahhh.... Thanks... that's why I like these forums. Back to the drawing board.

edit-->. just read through big dave's build, don't know how I missed that. Thanks for the link. I'll chew on that for a day or two. You're right, almost exactly what I was thinking. Hopefully I can execute it half as well.
Don’t ever yield your gift of dream; Your knack for gumption, too. For “It’s the crazy ones that have all the fun," if dreamers yearn to do.

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TimS
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Re: Subaru engine mount... project.

Post by TimS » Sat Jan 08, 2011 6:17 pm

Okay... Ordered a mid mount piece for $15, would take me lots more time to make one.

I think I'm going to keep the nose cone mount and add the mid mount, delete the bellhousing mount, and make the engine mounts...
Don’t ever yield your gift of dream; Your knack for gumption, too. For “It’s the crazy ones that have all the fun," if dreamers yearn to do.

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Re: Subaru engine mount... project.

Post by Big Dave » Sun Jan 09, 2011 3:56 am

I'm curious why you want to be able to remove the engine and trans as a unit. Are you expecting to break that many transaxles? :D

The two bolted together seems kind of unwieldy. Trying to get it balanced to slide it in and out seems difficult IMO.
I put my trans in by itself, and its kind of a PITA to get everything lined up. Bolting up the engine only takes 20 minutes. I can remove the engine and trans in about an hour by myself with a floor jack. The rear cage ads another hour :roll:
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TimS
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Re: Subaru engine mount... project.

Post by TimS » Sun Jan 09, 2011 10:08 am

Big Dave wrote:I'm curious why you want to be able to remove the engine and trans as a unit. Are you expecting to break that many transaxles? :D

The two bolted together seems kind of unwieldy. Trying to get it balanced to slide it in and out seems difficult IMO.
I put my trans in by itself, and its kind of a PITA to get everything lined up. Bolting up the engine only takes 20 minutes. I can remove the engine and trans in about an hour by myself with a floor jack. The rear cage ads another hour :roll:
Well... Because I have a pallet jack and not a engine hoist. Or that I don't really have any good "lifters" to call for help. Or maybe I'm just strange. No, don't expect to break alot. Maybe I'm just dreaming. I'm seriously considering keeping the bellhousing mount because I'm going to have to order more urethane bushings anyway. Just kicking myself for cutting the horn mounts already.

I like your setup - nose, mid, bellhousing, and engine, but I worry about bumping my butt and tweaking my cobbled together metal work, and tweaking the engine beyond my means to fix it.

Oh, did I tell you I think too much?
Don’t ever yield your gift of dream; Your knack for gumption, too. For “It’s the crazy ones that have all the fun," if dreamers yearn to do.

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Re: Subaru engine mount... project.

Post by winifredevw » Sun Jan 09, 2011 8:36 pm

Think of your trans/engine mounts as a cradle, they're just there to hold the drivetrain in place.

Your rear-cage/framehorn should be strong enough that you don't worry about breaking trans or engine cases, even when you hit your butt.

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Re: Subaru engine mount... project.

Post by TimS » Sun Jan 09, 2011 9:37 pm

winifredevw wrote:Think of your trans/engine mounts as a cradle, they're just there to hold the drivetrain in place.

Your rear-cage/framehorn should be strong enough that you don't worry about breaking trans or engine cases, even when you hit your butt.
Good point... I'm starting to see that. I measured the "sag" with 200lbs on one frame horn (me). It sags 0.1 inches (dial guage to floor), and it's not welded all the way yet. I had calculated a 0.05 flex in the beam at 1000lbs. Should stiffen up with the rear supports and once I weld up in front of the torsion housing.
Image

I think I'm going to go for the four mounts. Thanks for helping me with get my mind straight. Probably seems like simple fab work to some, but for me... I'm still excited that I can melt metal together :D

Pardon the "Look, I melted something together" picture, but Look, I melted something together! (and much better than last year) Got my frame horns done all the way around, I had previously just done a few stiches.
Image
Don’t ever yield your gift of dream; Your knack for gumption, too. For “It’s the crazy ones that have all the fun," if dreamers yearn to do.

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TimS
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Re: Subaru engine mount... project.

Post by TimS » Mon Jan 10, 2011 1:16 am

Yes... I was thinking of this all wrong. Thanks again.... "engine cradle".

I'm hoping that I can fit the urethane bushings on the mid mount under the trans, otherwise I'll be re-plumbing the brake lines :x

still have to clean and redo a few spots. The X is made from some 1" scrap and goes almost directly under the bellhousing and ends just in front of the subaru oil pan right where the motor mounts will be, also will reinforce the skid plates nicely.
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Don’t ever yield your gift of dream; Your knack for gumption, too. For “It’s the crazy ones that have all the fun," if dreamers yearn to do.

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Re: Subaru engine mount... project.

Post by Skidmark » Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:46 am

I hope you planned the position of that cross brace with your trans drain plug in mind.... just sayin'... :)
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TimS
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Re: Subaru engine mount... project.

Post by TimS » Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:03 am

Skidmark wrote:I hope you planned the position of that cross brace with your trans drain plug in mind.... just sayin'... :)
Hey Skid... You know me well :oops: ... Nope, forgot that.... BUT - The drain plug sits directly above the "X" so I'll have to be sure to put "possible frame drip" on the reciept. I looked at it last night and thought, "That's a good spot" after everything was welded.


Been working on the mounts but mostly waiting for UPS...

2x3's today
mid mount tomorrow
Urethane and Steering damper next week :evil:

Sooo... I already told you that I think too much.... And I have much time waiting on parts... And I needed a way to keep rotational loads off a HALF of a urethane bushing (because I won't be able to use a rear tab) while allowing it to be installed from an odd angle (so I don't have to trim my frame horn flanges flush)... Here is the latest from the "poor boy" machine shop. The bolt will hold it to the tab, and the tab will hold the bushing straight. Hardened them in the fireplace (and my leftover coffee to quench :? )last night.
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Don’t ever yield your gift of dream; Your knack for gumption, too. For “It’s the crazy ones that have all the fun," if dreamers yearn to do.

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