Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Offroad VW based vehicles have problems/insights all their own. Not to mention the knowledge gained in VW durability.

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Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:38 pm

Talked to Doug about the shop closing (thanks to the guys at Bow Wow) and found out the building had been sold so he sold out.

I got the buggy body off the pan by myself today (don't recommend doing it alone but I did get it done w/o too much damage) and started playing around with the truss bar (so to speak). Since it was so cold (and I hadn't really wiped off the tubing) that tape wouldn't stick so I used some string. I am using the pan now as a mockup/layout drawing to see just what else can be done.

I got an idea so I magnetically set the 1 X 3 on it's 1" edge on the diagonal for the shock mount. On the truss bar kit it was designed to hook into the lower outside hole of the sold motormount but in doing that it got too close to the drive axle (it is currently sitting at full hang) and closer than I liked to the soft line to the hydraulic clutch. If I went to the motor mount frame (pickle fork) then the soft line would have had to be moved!

This is one option:
IMG_0918 copy.jpg
IMG_0919 copy.jpg
IMG_0920 copy.jpg
This gives me a lot of clearance but again the mounting to the engine mount was iffy but if I build a mount that goes from that lower hole up to the top of the mount then I get a respite, to a certain extent, on the loading problem.

I then had a thought: how long is the short tie-rod for a bug BJ beam? Thanks to CWB I had one laying around so doing a very rough measurement I got something like 13-14 inches. I measured the string and it, depending on the bracketry I came up with it would be something like 17 to 20 inches. But still open would be finding another short tie-rod setup to use. Again, just a thought.

Still looking at options.

Lee
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Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:46 pm

Spent a couple of hours in the garage most of it fighting with gravity; apparently it did not observe the holiday.
IMG_0921 copy.jpg
I measured and cut the 1 X 3 and cut it to length. It was the trying to clamp it in place on the shock strut that gravity was so mean to me :wink: :lol: . I seemed like it was going to be impossible to get one side clamped in place (6" C-clamps) with the other side slipping off the shock mount dragging the other end with it.
IMG_0922 copy.jpg
I finally got the spreader in place then tried to come up with a location that wasn't too far to the outside or too close to the pickle forks causing interference with the clutch installation. I eyeballed a location (see the vertical line) then used one of the Truss kit bars almost fully extended to find the approximate angle. It may be a degree or two off depending on how the brackets to the motor mount and spreader sit but what you see is pretty close I think.

I think I am going to have to make a couple of temporary straps to hold the spreader in place so I can actually make the mounts for it then weld it in place. It sits at an odd angle, perpendicular to the shock mount but at odd angles to the flat part of the mount where the body bolts were.
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Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:58 am

After a long night (after 2 mos. I am still fighting with the "left overs" that flu that is going around) and a lot of thinking about it I am at the point where I don't see a need for rod ends of any kind but to make a solid mount instead.

I have been vacillating on that for a while but it is the amount of work going into it and the ease of doing the rod ends ( :roll: :lol: ) that has kept me looking at the rod ends. What I have done in the last couple of days is still a good base for what I think I am going to do.

Lee

Do it right the first time then you don't have to do it again, and again, and again.... (plus fix what got damaged because you didn't).

Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:28 pm

I got out to the garage again and found a piece of 1" X 1" square stock (I'm currently not thinking of round tube for a couple of reasons), not long enough to use but close enough to use for sighting of potential problems. The worse thing is that when set roughly in place it comes in about a finger's thickness from about the center of the inboard CV's boot. Moving it along the spreader it didn't make much difference as to where on the spreader it would have been installed at as to what it is too close to (drive/half shaft at full compression I have not checked yet).

Not sure what a 3/4" square tube would do if it was used.

I do have a long length of fairly thick walled 1/2" square tube, I laid it in place which worked out clearance wise (the tube was too long to go to the bottom of the spreader, and I didn't want to cut it down so the clearance might be a bit different then). I rested it on the solid motor mount's upper hole and on the top of the spreader then put a load on it about half way down with my hand, I could get to bend (I didn't want to add a lot of pressure due to the problems I had getting the spreader where it is yesterday) which caused a frown.

(argument) Granted one would think that the loading should come straight up the tube but then any loading on the pickle fork is going to end up being applied as an arc (or, depending on what is going on, a couple of arcs). The truss bar is supposed to stop any movement t all.

I am going to the extreme thinking here which is one of the reasons I have put this off over the years but my argument to that is going to be: what you expect is not what you are going to get! As I think what 'Pile was alluding to: the commercial Truss/Kaffer/traction bars are largely a compromise although I think the Mendola unit has gone one additional step but for IRS units only.

I have worked with heavy duty structure that used spherical rod ends but they were set to triangles. Very, very ridged, very strong and very adjustable (the structure was aligned to a straight line using a lazer beam). I think the sturcture they were supporting was good for 12Gs with the structure fully loaded. There are some basic weaknesses to them however and that is what I was looking at, a good basic design for both myself and others.

As a side bar to this I did a feel of the mount (it was too hard to get to to see and photograph to share but it could be done if someone wanted it) I have for a bus (transaxle) into bug solid mount looking for the two additional holes besides the main hole to bolt the mount to the mounting forks. I didn't measure them for location but they feel pretty close to the same as the solid mounts for the stock bug transaxle so if I do this right then it should allow either of the trannys to be used.

Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Mon Nov 13, 2017 6:32 pm

I'm still fighting with certain areas of this support structure. As I said, I have been looking into this for several years and have saved some. A couple I don't remember who posted them but I'll post them for the record.
empi truss bzar.jpg
Bugpack and EMPI's truss/Kaffer bars look to be the same.
eyeball engineering's torque bar.jpg
This is Eyeball engineering's version of the system. I don't like the join in the middle of the spreader bar.
Piledriver's @ tunacan.net.jpg
Kaffer bar 1.jpg
Kaffer bar 1.5.jpg
Kaffer bar 2.jpg
Kaffer bar 3.jpg
Unless I am mistaken these all came from Piledriver.
VGAJames style of bracing 1.jpg
I am not being allowed to add more files for some reason so I will do the three in another post.
Mendola Stiffy.jpg
Mendola's 'stiffy'.jpg
The Mendola "Stiffy". For IRS it seems to be pretty solid but not for a swing axle, at least as far as I can tell.

Most of the problems I am having is with clearance between the CV and the axle clearance and the diagonal to the spreader.

Note of additional files in another post.
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Last edited by Ol'fogasaurus on Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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bajaherbie
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by bajaherbie » Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:06 pm

The union on the Eyeball may be for shipping reasons....

I vote for the Mendeola setup.

Mine are welded in, 1" diameter. Part of the cage. My upper shock mounts are MIA.

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Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:33 pm

https://vwparts.aircooled.net/Eyeball-E ... r-late.htm

I hadn't looked into eyeball engineering for a long time so I looked them up. Notice that they are not making the unit any more. As I remember they said that the brake in the middle was for assembly but that is my memory.
Mendola Stiffy.jpg
The Mendola unit I like real well as it is triangulated on each side of the car but the sticking point is the attachments at the shock mount bolt.
Bilstein shock mount - Copy copy.jpg
Again, this is the sticking point on the Mendola unit, this shows the mount at the ends of the unit I already have from another company and the spacer used to replicate the Bilstein shock and its adapter/spacer. This required a longer bolt than that which came with the kit and the bolt is carrying a lot of the loads if the engine and trans want to start dancing around the threads of the longest bolt I could get are in jeopardy (remember, you don't put threads in shear or under other than straight on loads.
edit 003 - Copy.JPG
Add to that it is also putting the shock mount in jeopardy with the loads being applied against it.
edit 002 - Copy.JPG
I also took a look at putting a "strong back" in this way using angle iron or vertical stiffener but it didn't solve anything except maybe strengthening the welded joint between the tube and the mounts themselves.

Again, I have been looking at this for several years now. I'm still not happy with my current thoughts so I haven't cut any metal yet.

Thanks for the "put" Herb.

Lee
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Piledriver » Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:36 pm

There is no true need to attach the shocks to it, in your case there are good arguments against it.
It's a convention, not a requirement.

Sometimes, you need to just set "the box" on fire. :twisted:
I, for one, regularly embrace our new robot overlords, as I am the guy fixing the robots...

Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:11 pm

Piledriver wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:36 pm
There is no true need to attach the shocks to it, in your case there are good arguments against it.
It's a convention, not a requirement.

Sometimes, you need to just set "the box" on fire. :twisted:
I agree Pile, that is i am playing with what I am looking at now. Each way seems to get more involved than the last one. It keeps my mind active I hope.

Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:43 pm

These are the three missing pictures from 4 VGAJames posts that I couldn't add a couple posts above.
VGAJames style of bracing 2.jpg
VGAJames style of bracing 3.jpg
VGAJames style of bracing 4.jpg
It is another way of doing it but I think more information needs to be there.

Lee
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Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:13 pm

Sorry about deleting a post a couple of days ago but I had got thinking about it as it had a lot of thinking out loud in it. I needed to write it down but not post it.

I went up to the salvage yard and bought three 2' lengths of 1" X .120 wall tubing to work with in connecting the 1 X 3 to the motor mount (the third piece is a just-in-case piece). Do I need go this deep into this: probably not but then there is the just-in-case issue as I think I have come close to needing this a couple of times. One of the rails that used to be in our group did loose their mount on a hard landing doing a ridiculously long jump. But to me, again, it is the whole mess tied into the shock bolts that are bothering me.

I had the idea that today I would be able to make the pattern for the connector to the tube and the motor mount but the wife said the weather guessers expect 2 days of reasonably sunny weather before the rain settles back in for a while so she wanted to put the Christmas decorations up so we will have them done to turn them on after T-giving. We got ~half of them up so tomorrow I will be back outside but later come in with freezing hands... again. :lol:

I was able to get the three pieces degreased then into the blast cabinet getting them ready to work with. I am thinking that the making of a pattern itself is going to get complicated, more so than I at first had thought; so many cut and fitted angles and just fitting things together is involved. The more I get into it the more I think I understand why Dr. Porsche and crew didn't address it back in the '30s and '40s :roll: :wink: :lol: .

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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by bajaherbie » Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:32 pm

In the VGA James pics I am guessing the top of the adjuster is attached to the down tubes of a roll cage? On a basic 6 pt empi cage the down tubes are just bolted to the package tray.

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Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:23 pm

Your "I'm guessing" might be true Herb and it sounds like a good plan but that knowledge isn't there. If people see the pix and do know that fact (and if it was said so in the post I got the pictures from, I apologize for my lack of bring forward that information. Something I hadn't even thought about at the time) then they could ignore the fact that the loads need to be continued on/supported.

Years ago I got into a discussion on something (at work) that, after seeing what they were planning on doing, it was something I didn't feel comfortable with (I was supposed to be helping them) but, didn't know the answer myself, I asked the question... "are you sure?" "Yes" came the answer, I then asked the same question. This was repeated several more times and I seem to remember the engineer I was working with getting a bit agitated. The reason for doing what had been done in about '68 and the people who were responsible for the design were long gone or in different areas so there was no information to fall back on (we are now talking about the mid-90's). To make a long story short when next 'plane that went up for testing it had a measuring device mounted in it. It turned out that what thought that was going to happen didn't happen but the opposite is what happened. The new design would have done a great deal of damage ($$$).

One of the many reasons I try to not guess and probably go overboard figuring things out at times. Around here I ask a lot of questions and take a lot of photos for my memory.

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