Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Offroad VW based vehicles have problems/insights all their own. Not to mention the knowledge gained in VW durability.

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dustymojave
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by dustymojave » Fri Nov 03, 2017 4:08 am

I agree with Pile on this.

I prefer to go by the old engineering concept of K.I.S.S. (Keep It Simple Stupid)

Why have the Kafer bar and the tank support parallel to each other. Why not incorporate one into the other?

The Kafer bar vertical struts to the motor mount saddle would be stronger if they connected above further outboard, but they need to clear the headers and the starter motor too.
Richard
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Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:29 am

Hey, woke up to a dusting of snow this am; its 35° right now.

The engine is in front (actually to the rear) of the trans solid mount so it is not that big of an issue. That is one of the reasons I had to go the way I have gone.
003.JPG
I still have the Cologne V6 tied to the 091 but after putting either of the two rectangular tubes in place the 091 will not work as it not only wouldn't fit under the rectangular tube but would be very close to the Kaffer bar if it even would fit under (the trans sits ~ 3" higher and the case is more or less square and larger). Add to that the additional weight and the need for front motor mount which is why I decided not to go this way but now....

Spent a long night doing mental gymnastics on this. Since I cruise the dunes, not aggressively ride them, my thinking has been less aggressive but then there has been the occasional problems when cruising in my blue buggy such as when a fresh dune crest collapsed on me and the drop was long and hard.
buggy7 (2).jpg
The body is another part of the mix as it does not have open wheel wells and closes down so much in the rear.

I think I might be back at square one but I did have to go this way to see just what I had. If you remember I could not come up with a Kaffer/truss bar design I liked that would fit this scenario. I didn't realize that this bar sat so low but then for the street this design is not that big of a deal and again, it is not only tying things together but it also has to support the weight of the engine tied (in mounted) to the transaxle. Since I have seen several rails with the shock mounts broken off the rear torsion tube I was loathe to put too much load on them which this design does do especially with the long bolt (the shank is long so the threads are not in anyway of being in shear). I also have seen the whole tower broken hence the reference to boxing the tower.

In the one picture, which was taken many years ago you can see the mounts I made tied to the engine cage I also made but I ended up lengthening it to accommodate the radiator... looked awful (can't find the picture of it right now). One of the options was to put it in the firewall of the body and have it blow back using the air from inside of the body. Since I can't put rear seats in (room) it still may be an option.

Ma, ma, make it stop! :roll: :lol:
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Fri Nov 03, 2017 3:11 pm

IMG_0905 copy.jpg
You can't see it well here but it has started to snow again. The two previous snow traces have melted but the wind is from the North more this time; a bigger wind, it stopped then now blowing from the North again.
IMG_0906 copy.jpg
I went out and played with the Truss bar again, right now everything is either finger tight or tightened to the point of not damaging the locking part of the nut.

This time I removed the spreader bar and attached the diagonals to the angled mount for the spreader bar. I don't like it very much as, again, it is putting a lot of loads on those two shock mount bolts.

Not only would I might have to make a new mounting for the diagonals to the shock bolts, I would probably have to use the 1 X 3 at an angle to add some support to the eye for the shock bolts as they have the potential to be under a lot of different loads. I think I would have to basically start from scratch on the diagonals as as you can see they are unwound more than quite a bit but... it is something to think about.

Opinions???

Lee
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by dustymojave » Sat Nov 04, 2017 2:42 am

A bunch of flakes hanging out in your neighborhood, huh? And here I thought all the flakes had moved to California from everywhere else. Sure seems like it sometimes anyway.
Richard
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'58 Baja with 815K Miles and counting

Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Sat Nov 04, 2017 11:15 am

The Seattle area is growing fast... and I mean fast. In the past few months alone the new idiot drivers seem to out number the old idiot drivers (and not all of them are young males either) and I am not kidding. Very dangerous to be out on the road especially at certain times with "weavers" going in and out of the lanes to get a few feet ahead. Manners and respect for others were pretty normal here but not now.

The weather gussers' are now saying that we could get anywhere from 2" to 3" of snow over night. I wonder how well the new people are going to do in the heavy wet type of snow we get here.

Anyway, been doing a lot of thinking about this. The 1 X 2 rectangular tube has a wall thickness of .072 and the wall thickness of the 1 X 3 is .065; the span is between 3' and 4', but I haven't measure closely yet but I think the strength of the two might be close enough so that either might work assuming I decided to put the V6 in rather than a ACVW mill. Not good at math anymore since I didn't have to use it much at work (we had stress engineers to double check us and add a "Crib" on if they thought necessary. I think I will have to form a couple of pieces of thick material for the angled joins though. Taking all that loading off the shock mount bolt and the eye at the top of the torsion tube will be a big "head" worry/relief away from me. A lot to consider though.

I would have to change drive axles and maybe up size the torsion bars so any advice on the torsion bars would be appreciated.

Lee

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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Sat Nov 04, 2017 2:58 pm

I went out and did some playing around with the 1 X 2 rectangular tube I had. If I stand the 1 X 2 tube on the one inch side and move it up the shock mount part of the casting, just below the ball for the shock bolt hole, I think I can bracket the tube in place (it means taking the body off again but in some ways it is an advantage as there is some additional work to do on the seats and turning brakes for which the body is now in the way) which should allow me to make new clevis/spherical rod end brackets for making and adding two shear type of attaching brackets. They would be added very close to each end of the rectangular tube to limit any loading to make the tube flex. It also turns out that the Truss bar I bought is basically not usable (unless I have mossed something) on this buggy, partly because of the point "Pile pointed out (I'd hook those diagonals to that and ditch the existing kafer brace crossbar.
Its not designed right anyway, the triangulation isn't.
weld some tabs on the 1x3 near the ends, or just weld in some 1x1 and sell the kafer brace complete.
) but I will have to check on the blue buggy to see if it is usable there. Since it also has an 091 it would be the spreader bar clearing the bus trans I would be worried about. By doing this, with the 1 X 2 rectangular tube, I should be able to use the V6 w/091 transaxle or a stock trans w/ACVW engine. I'll have to try the 1 X 3 to check for fitment and clearance. I just went out and checked and while it is a tight fit and close to interfering in several ways it is the thinner wall that has me iffy on it.

Pile, we went through the design on the unit I bought a couple of years ago but I couldn't figure out anything better and the one you or Dusty had would have been a bit tight with this body I think.

If I remember it was either 'Pile or Dusty that said the Tractor Supply has adjustable clevis rods and links. Am I remembering the business correctly?

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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Piledriver » Sat Nov 04, 2017 5:49 pm

Yes, but I can weld now, so I'd never do it that way again.
The tractor supply setup was a LOT heavier duty than your kafer brace.
It was basically 3 mower drag links.
(It DOES work and I would not take it off to redo)

I know you have a welder... You can do better.
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Sat Nov 04, 2017 6:24 pm

I know you have a welder... You can do better.

:oops:

What I really need is longer pre-tapped tubes or clevises with tubes; that is why I asked about your source. By moving the tube up higher on the torsion end pieces it does solve at least some/part of the angle problems that I was not too happy with. I am still messing with it in my mind then going out then going out to the garage trying to see if it can be done.
10-01-06 029 (2).jpg
I still have this and, if I can re-shorten it I may use it or modify it as it does have the engine mounts in place. I now have a beading machine (need to build a stand for it and modify it for strength) so I can nowskin the baggage/engine cover frame.

One additional thing I am going to do is to build a new body cart/dolly, smaller and lighter weight than the wooden one that I made from scrap lumber I found when they were putting in the new development across the street at least 10 years ago. I did ask before I grabbed; nice guys and they were from the scrap pile) I have laying on it's side and it is still in the way. I am running out of room in the two stalls I have the use of in the/her garage :roll: ; the wife is slowly trying to take over the center stall... slowly but surely. I got lazy and made it too tall and wide as I was trying to work two problems at the same time but I think I made them worse. Part of the problem is I am always working alone so help lifting isn't there.
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Piledriver » Sat Nov 04, 2017 9:29 pm

The adjust-ability/heim joint setup is 100% eye candy.
It doesn't move once in place.

The only reason a kafer brace needs to be adjustable is to fit cars that have been hit or modded, perhaps to make it easier to install to some extent.
Weld some 1x1 tube in for the diagonals and paint bomb it.
No need to involve the shock bolts.
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Sat Nov 04, 2017 10:54 pm

My consern was the getting the unit away from attaching the Truss bar to the shock bolts; too much deflection on the too long bolt. Most of the commercial units seem to want the ease of the using the shock bolts which is the easy way out of coming up with a design. I/we had played around with it a couple of years ago but I hadn't thought of your idea of using a rectangular spreader tube like you did. Sometimes you look at something too long or in a too limited perspective and miss the obvious or easy solutions. Not sure yet on this but it is another option.

Thanks again 'Pile.

Lee

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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Sat Nov 04, 2017 11:06 pm

Piledriver wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2017 9:29 pm
The adjust-ability/heim joint setup is 100% eye candy.
It doesn't move once in place.

The only reason a kafer brace needs to be adjustable is to fit cars that have been hit or modded, perhaps to make it easier to install to some extent.
Weld some 1x1 tube in for the diagonals and paint bomb it.
No need to involve the shock bolts.
I had originally used a rectangular tube as you say but there were 2 problems:

The CVs were in the way and...

I think the end of the pickle forks are designed to straighten out when the engine weight was added, at least that was the intention based on how the design of the forks look. I think the designed flex is in the area of the forming under the is. I can't post the pix right now but if anyone wants me to post it...
001.JPG
003.JPG
The frame is upside down here but I think anyway, it does show that there is the possibility for weight deflection to keep the engine level.
Dune Buggy rebuild 10-1-06 068 copy.jpg
I wonder, if that is what it is for, that limiting the end of the forks is a good idea and maybe adding support behind the bend might be a better idea. This is a picture of my original mount for the engine cage and fuel tank back in the mid 90s. The diagonal piece went down to the pickle forks just in front of the CV relief to support the weight of the V6 and work as a Truss assembly. This was even before I was aware of them.
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:24 am

I had a long night, not sure if I am coming down with something or what but I pulled a couple of muscles in my chest from the heavy sneezing (and probably blowing) :roll: . No snow yet but it is cold out and the moisture is in the air.

I got a bunch of thinking time so later today I am going to shorten some $10 sticks of rectangular tube and play with several variations of structure based on "Piles" suggestion plus my opinion that the end of the trans mounts should not be tied in place (adding to the loads on the Truss bar must work with. They are not really designed for real load carrying structure which is what we want them to do if you think about it). Dr. Porsche and his crew designed their car for basic transportation, not for beating it up on the al the different types of tracks, roads, off-roading and the sand just to name a few uses we modify the little jewels for. Those long, unsupported mounts allow the trans and engine to work like the rear view of a stripper or a Congo like at full pleasure. Not only is it free to move up and down but they rely on the spot welded joins/seams/flanges to stop side to side movement, boom-ditty, boom ditty boom actions and maybe a figure 8 or two; just one of the reasons that welding the seams is recommended.

One of the other things that has to come out of this playing today is: is what I have done so far going to interfere with the new structure (or vise-versa). I think not but a 3-D real life view is required here.

Got some work to do and pictures to take.
Lee

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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:57 am

IMG_0910 copy.jpg
It started snowing again, just as I went out to the garage. Not sure how long and how much but the garage was pretty cold.
IMG_0909.JPG
IMG_0912 copy.jpg
Ok, it took me almost a half hour to be able to get the 1 X 3 set on the shock tower. Magnets finally held for the picture but trying to clamp it in place just didn't work.

There are two diagonals shown:

The outboard ones go from tube, by the shock tower to the mounting brackets from the commercial truss bar. There is room for the diagonals if I limit their size to the 1/2" OD; this will allow full suspension travel (I think).

The inner ones go to the trans mount and the upper end had to be moved in quite a bit to get what looks like a good angle. Very close to the clutch soft line but should work again, if I keep the size of the tube moderate.

I haven't taken any measurements for the fuel tank as it was getting a bit too cool for my hands. I should be able to do that later today. The 1 X 2 would give a bit more room for the fuel tank. I think there is enough room for going with the 091 conversion also.
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Sun Nov 05, 2017 6:19 pm

The snow and freezing rain stopped a while ago so the garage warmed up a enough so I could go out do some measuring,

The fuel tank measures roughly 13 inches from the top of the cap to the mounts sitting on a flat surface. Using a level, laying on the upper corner of the 1 X 3 I have just over 13 inches of room under the hole in the rear package tray that I made so many years ago. The upper edge of the 1 X 3 is almost level with the top of the granny's bellhousing. Go figure!

I have to shorten the 1 X 3 then build the mounts to locate and mount the 1 X 3 before I can be more positive as the 1 X 3 is sitting at an angle and us very precariously right now so I have been very want to get too near it.

I still would like to be sure about the pickle forks deflecting or not just after the triangle of the mount which ends at the relief for the CV as it makes a difference to how/where I attach and what I use.

I'm going to have to make the new body mount cart first so I can load or unload the body off the pan by myself.

Lee

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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Tue Nov 07, 2017 4:31 pm

News: I went up to autovice/bowwow to talk to Doug about the ends of the trans mounts and geeze, the shop is closed and there was a note that the parts house has moved. I called them and found out that Doug retired from Bowwow and sold the business. It is now located in Monroe across from the fair grounds under new ownership.

I talked to the person who answered the phone about the frame horn ends and he went into shock! Something he had never thought of but he did say that it does look like the bend might be there for deflection. If I tie a solid support from a spreader to the frame horned just in front of the relief for the CVs I should be OK if I do use the bus and V-6. as I would also have to add motormounts for it. With an ACVW engine then attaching the support to the engine mount and to the spreader but w/o using the Truss bar I bought would be OK but if I could adding engine mounts would be better. Either way there are some new parts that I added/bent to shape that may have to be moved or changed.

Still in deep contemplation over this.

Lee

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