Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Offroad VW based vehicles have problems/insights all their own. Not to mention the knowledge gained in VW durability.

Moderators: Leatherneck, rickosuave1987

Post Reply
User avatar
dustymojave
Posts: 2165
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 12:08 am
Location: Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal

Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by dustymojave » Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:19 pm

HAH!!!

4 years ago I had a routine annual Physical. My Doctor was of an age I thought she was close to retirement. So I asked her during the exam if she was thinking of retiring and should I be shopping for another doctor to replace her. She seemed offended and said she had no thoughts of retiring in the foreseeable future. Her tone of voice and the way she acted indicated she was serious and was pissed. :oops:

So then 3 months later, I got a letter from Kaiser indicating that my doctor had retired and I was assigned to a different doctor. :roll:

I had actually retired the month after that exam. 8)

Basically density wise and weight per foot of tube is the same for all steel alloys. Whether mild steel or 4130 or any chrome vanadium tool steel or whatever. The difference in density is not enough to tell on even a laboratory scale. People keep telling me they use 4130 for their roll cage because it's lighter. That just demonstrates their ignorance. Different radius in the corner of rectangular tube could make a very minor difference. Is teh new tube lighter or heavier or stiffer or what?
Richard
Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
Speed Kills!, but then...So does OLD AGE!!
A.R.T.S. OffRoad Race Tech Inspection
MDR / MORE / Glen Helen BajaCup Challenge
AKA: MojaveRacer208
'58 Baja with 815K Miles and counting

Ol'fogasaurus
Posts: 13959
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 1:17 am
Location: Just north of Seattle

Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:57 pm

Since I employed in Aircraft and when I was working with metal early in my first few jobs back in the mid 60's I worked in AL and CRES/SS so working with steel is fairly unfamiliar to me. I am sure what you say it true but this is a question as it feels so different.

The darker colored steel would polish up by removing the darker protective layer and is a heavier to remove protective coating than the steel I had been previous been using and the steel tube I got. The tube I got today was like the previous tubing.
IMG_1237 copy.jpg
The radiuses on the bends in the new steel tube are tighter/smaller than the more generous radiuses on the other tube in question (for my interest only). The weight per length seems to be heavier on the larger radius tube. It could be that the hard coating is what makes the difference that is confusing me.
IMG_1238 copy.jpg
The previous tube is the one is one the left side and it has a end put on it already. I tried to weigh them but the bathroom scale would not go that low.

To lift to two almost the same lengths of steel you can feel something different between the two; The tube in question seems to be heavier like I said it is also "something" else but I don't really know how to explain it (ignoring the feel of different radius). The piece was too long for my blast cabinet but I will try it on an end scrap to see how that works removing the covering tomorrow... I hope.

Thanks for the info Dusty.

Lee
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Ol'fogasaurus
Posts: 13959
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 1:17 am
Location: Just north of Seattle

Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:27 pm

Had a moment of stupidity last night and smashed my left hand thumb just above the knuckle. Got the bleeding stopped put ice on it and finally got it to stop throbbing finally and if I try to do anything with my left hand it starts to weep red tears of pain so today... so it is "be careful" day. Since I have to be careful I got back onto the turning brake and seat issue... again.
IMG_1240 copy.jpg
IMG_1239 copy.jpg
I got looking at the turning brakes again and, with some measuring, I found that modifying a length of 1 X 2 X 0.075 is what the maker of my turning brake assy is using, so... I happen to have a length of 1 X 2 X 0.075 tube in my "OOPs" stash. By removing the seamed side I could make a mount for the turning brake handles.

Since the turning brake assembly is a full one piece assembly it is won't fit between the seats as they are moved over as far to the center of the buggy as possible w/o contacting the tunnel.
IMG_0275%20(Custom)[1].jpg
This is what RyanB did on his buggy and it is in the direction I am heading. No wood though :wink: . I think it is a very good idea in cases where you have bad circumstances.
IMG_1241 copy.jpg
Moving the seat to the rear the tube is about where it will need to be. The shift handle is in 4th gear and the handles miss the shift rod by over an inch. Enough to get my "meat grabbers" over the handle and not in to the shifter.
IMG_1242 copy.jpg
This is about where the cylinders ill be. If I continued to use the rectangular tube cut down and the upper surface removed I would have to add a spacer past where the white line is.

One other things I am thinking of has to do with getting in or out of a rail or pan buggy; it has to do with that wandering hand during the entrance or egress from the outside to the seat. Since on rails and some buggies like mine have the seats mounted to either on the floor or close to it so getting in or out either the cage is grabbed or the floor/tunnel is used to push on for lift and/or control. With the "all-thread" incased in a tube and controlled by "using jam nuts" so it is very vulnerable to someone putting weight on it. I am thinking that I might add a "C" shaped piece of tube to the tunnel in order to protect it. If I do go with a full length cut of the tube cut into a "C" shape to make a new but "total"/one piece mount I could just graft another "C" section of tube upside down to protect the shift rods. The sift rods and connectors are about 2 1/2 inches off the bottom of the mount and there isn't that much of an arc at either end.

Lee
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Ol'fogasaurus
Posts: 13959
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 1:17 am
Location: Just north of Seattle

Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:10 pm

4th of July 2004 009.jpg
I forgot to mention that when you have an open shift rod, such as when you have a bus in a bug like I do, so the shift rod is now on top of the tunnel (unless you have the 12° mount that is) you can bend it if you push up to get out or your hand slips off the edge of the seat and onto the shift rod.

I'm still debating on a cover for the turning brake rods; e.g., paraphrasing Shakespeare: "To cover or not to cover, that is the question." ("To be, or not to be" is the opening phrase of a soliloquy spoken by Prince Hamlet in the so-called "nunnery scene" of William Shakespeare's play Hamlet. Act III, Scene I.")
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Ol'fogasaurus
Posts: 13959
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 1:17 am
Location: Just north of Seattle

Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:18 pm

IMG_1243 copy.jpg
IMG_1244 copy.jpg
Continuing on with the mockup to see if this idea might work I blasted the 1 X 2 tube then using a tri-square I marked the potential cut line on the seamed side of the tube. The cuts will be down to the area where the cylinder is but I am not sure how the cylinder unit will be mounted yet as it is a flat mount. I wonder if some CSK screws could be used but then that will raise the cylinder up a bit to account for the potential need for doubles to accommodate the CSK. Just how much higher could make a difference so no cutting of the tube yet. This would be so much easier hand drawn :roll: .

In the second pix this shows not to go over something with a Sharpie who's point is more worn than the original one :lol: . The cuts are just a bit wider than the width of the leg, about on the OML of the radius (OML is the outside mold line of the bend; where the straight/flat surface joins the radius). There will be a slight radius even it the cut is smoothed to the vertical leg. To put a crown in (a full radius) will shorten the leg a tad but not enough to make a difference.

The front of the tube is about 2 1/2 inches behind the step where the e-brake hole is.

The wife wants me to get it done before I am gone. I think I am something like 317 years old in dog years.

The other option is just to mount the cylinder unit in the rear and make a new mount for the handles which is the way I was going to go until I saw that lonesome tube leaning against the wall begging to be used.. Easier but I am not sure if it is just easier or better.
IMG_1245 copy.jpg
This is where I think the cylinders are going to be but not completely sure yet. The pix I took before did not show how far to the center the seat has to be to align with the pedals and give room for the side of the buggy body. As I thought: I will have to make some kind of a spacer/mount because the mount would be behind the drop from the flat e-brake area but forward of the pan's serial number. Not a big deal but more work to accomodate the arc of the tunnel.

Draw back: If I cut to the top off the tube then I have a place to collect sand like the floor does. If I put a cover over the mount then I have a tube to collect sand in. If I notch the tube in the front and rear to mount the handles then the cylinders I still have a tube. I can't really seal the tube off as I would need a small slot for the arc of the rod so still a place to collect sand. I could put holes along the side for the sand to drop out of when I put air down the tube which may not be as silly as it sounds.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Ol'fogasaurus
Posts: 13959
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 1:17 am
Location: Just north of Seattle

Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:48 pm

It is looking like the 1 X 2 won't work. Laying the turning brake assembly on top of the 1 X 2 the two materials were so close you couldn't really feel the override. I got some quiet time tonight and went out and mike'd things to make sure. The 1 X 2 X 0.075 won't work without some cutting down of the inside pivot for the handles plus cutting through the chrome on inside pivot post for the handles which I don't have the "want" to do. I'm not sure if the existing mount is metric or the difference is the additional thickness of the protective chrome plating as the thickness of a good triple (for example) chrome plating can add up.

Measurements: The wall thickness on the chrome job is around 0.124/2.98mm while the bare 1 X 2 was something like 0.077 SAE/2.09mm. The inside measurement on the chrome job is 46.98mm/1.849 SAE. It now looks like it will be making a custom mount for the handles and another inside mount for the existing chrome mount in the rear. I don't want to cut it up either... just-in-case.

The idea could have been great if it would have worked but time to be realistic I guess. :roll:

Lee

Ol'fogasaurus
Posts: 13959
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 1:17 am
Location: Just north of Seattle

Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Sat Jul 14, 2018 2:04 pm

I don't know if I am going to go this way or not but seeing if I was able to do it had to be discovered.
IMG_1246 copy.jpg
The 1 X 2 marked up for a trial. Removing part of the seamed area of the tube.
IMG_1247 copy.jpg
Cut done using a 3" disc and some other common tools.
IMG_1248 copy.jpg
After several different methods including using a smoke wrench and a BFH I got the opening spread and the sides vertical.
IMG_1249 copy.jpg
The handle doohickeys standing in place. Mounting holes not drilled as I am not sure this is the way to go now. It was getting too hot in the garage as the sun was moving to the west which the garage also faces.

Lee
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Ol'fogasaurus
Posts: 13959
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 1:17 am
Location: Just north of Seattle

Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:09 pm

black buggy cage (1) copy copy.jpg
Got a new computer the other day that allows me to draw on the computer. This is my second try, the first at editing a picture as it has a ruler that is protracted that will allow straight lines or protractor angles. The other was a drawing was of an owl that I erased 'cause I thought I was having problems copying it to another computer. I didn't know if it was compromised or just what so I deleted it.

This is an idea of the cage. If I remember correctly, the seating is in a full forward position here.

Lee
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
dustymojave
Posts: 2165
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 12:08 am
Location: Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal

Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by dustymojave » Sun Jul 15, 2018 2:22 am

Ol'fogasaurus wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:09 pm
black buggy cage (1) copy copy.jpg

This is an idea of the cage. If I remember correctly, the seating is in a full forward position here.

Lee
Now that's starting to look as it should oughta! (remember Lee what I said the other day about what I try to not do)
"Not possible to determine the dimensions of the image." I call BS on that! The image has already been used in here. So hose off! Eh!

The image is Lee's pic of his buggy with the cage drawn.
Richard
Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
Speed Kills!, but then...So does OLD AGE!!
A.R.T.S. OffRoad Race Tech Inspection
MDR / MORE / Glen Helen BajaCup Challenge
AKA: MojaveRacer208
'58 Baja with 815K Miles and counting

Ol'fogasaurus
Posts: 13959
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 1:17 am
Location: Just north of Seattle

Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Sun Jul 15, 2018 4:40 am

I guess I shouldn't have posted the pix :oops: . Trying to learn a new computer and its new to me features but it it too late to pull them off now but I will be more careful in the future.

:oops:

Ol'fogasaurus
Posts: 13959
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 1:17 am
Location: Just north of Seattle

Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Sun Jul 15, 2018 2:56 pm

IMG_1251 copy.jpg
Its been quite a while since I looked at the top of the turning brake handles... if I ever, so pulled the covers at the top apart and this is how it looks.

Different manufactures do the ends of the handles differently with some even using "grips" similar to bicycle handlebar grips while some ends are two piece shapes screwed together with the handle either showing or not showing in between. I've seen single handle turning brakes using a "Tee" grip like some use on a shifter.

Some people even spread the two handles apart so they can grip each handle separately but I like mine together so I can apply a load on both brakes at the same time to cause the open diff to work as a unit not singularly. All a matter of taste or comfort. Some of the two wheel drive off-roaders lightly rest their foot on the brake pedal to accomplish the same thing but all-to-often the left foot is needed to do some shifting at the same time.

These handles can be shortened as long as the radius is replicated allowing the end so the handle's unfinished end not to show (I recommend a protective covering on the ends to stop rust).

I over edited the picture so the relief in the ball could be seen.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Ol'fogasaurus
Posts: 13959
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 1:17 am
Location: Just north of Seattle

Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:19 pm

The "bluing" paint has dried and I can mark and see the locations of the stock pivot points (based on the kit's locations that I had purchased) and their relationship to the vertical arms of the tube. Laying the arms in the cut out and I found that I can drop the pivots a bit but, IF I GO THIS WAY, I will probably want even thin doublers on the verticals for loading and potential wear. With the steering tires I don't use the turning brakes that much for directional change but the occasional locking up of the diff.

Putting the cylinders to the rear will end up putting the cylinders a bit higher than the kits geometry. The holes in the arms for the rods and the pivots on the cylinders I think the geometry are going to be well within any constraints I can see mainly because both ends are generously pivoted. The small arc the kit has will end up being a small lift at the arms rather than an arc but I won't know for sure until it is done.

Running the seat back and forth on its track allowed me to see that the arms are going to have to be shortened or installed more vertically. That will happen when the seats are finish mounted and set in place and the turning brake mount is also finished.

If things cool off enough tomorrow I will try to get back out to the garage. We aren't used to these temps here or at least until the humidity is baked away :lol: :wink: .

Lee

Ol'fogasaurus
Posts: 13959
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 1:17 am
Location: Just north of Seattle

Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:22 pm

The other day Chad H posted this about his blind nut kit (http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic ... 0#p1264273) which I am also debating on using.



I've had mine for somewhere between 10 and 15 years but never have tried to use it. I just rediscovered where I put it the other day when cleaning the garage up a bit :oops: .

I'm still playing with the mounting of the 1 X 2 tube on the tunnel trying to decide whether to use the way I have been looking at or go back to a more traditional way so the mock-up design way of doing this is still in play.
IMG_1254 copy.jpg
Now that I know I can spread the sides of the tube to make the handle assy fit inside (I'll weld doublers on the outside to cover wear and Oh-ohs. I think the nuts can be put in here and not interfere with the shift rod. I just picked up a couple of bolt just to show what I am talking about. Size will come later. This way I will have to cut the top of the rectangular tube back a couple of inches but that was already planned for. I will be able to get a socket here to tighten things up.
IMG_1255 copy.jpg
This is how the cylinders are mounted and they are designed to be mounted on the top of the tube. Two holes in the bottom of the tube would have to be put in in order to access the holes for the bolts to clamp the cylinder in place.
IMG_1257 copy.jpg
The rear is the hard part. This shows the two bolts in line but they are awfully close to the shift rod. In the pix the seat is in the forward most position but I did slide the seat to the rear to check things out there too.
IMG_1258 copy.jpg
This is the other option for attachment but I didn't show the cut horizontal for the stiffening flange to support the bolts here. I really don't think that there is going to be much load applied here.

If I went to the rear mounting of the slave cylinders here I would have to bend up two brackets to bolt to the tunnel and the original mounting bracket. Remember, there is a slight arc here.
IMG_1259 copy.jpg
I put the turning brake assembly back together to double check to see if I could leave it stock and mount it that way. You can see just how close it is going to be and to plumb it is going to be tight. It would work but have a potential limitation even with shortening the handles up a bunch.

Lee
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Ol'fogasaurus
Posts: 13959
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 1:17 am
Location: Just north of Seattle

Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Tue Jul 17, 2018 2:11 pm

Sorry about today. I am one of those people who, when they get nervous, who changes and gets active and talks a lot :oops: .

With the stock turning brake assembly back together and in the forward most position on that flatarea that the e-brake used:
IMG_1260 copy.jpg
The seat in full forward position.
IMG_1261 copy.jpg
The seat in full aft position.

I had to move the seat a few inches outboard closer to the side of the buggy to do it so the clearance between the seat and the buggy's side will be tight. I need to put the body back on for a while just to check some of this out to see if I can get away with it.

To do this about 3 to 4 inches would have to be cut from the handles which I don't have a problem doing. A little leverage might be lost but I am not sure if it would be too much.

Lee
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Ol'fogasaurus
Posts: 13959
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 1:17 am
Location: Just north of Seattle

Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:47 pm

Spent another half hour this morning moving things around on the buggy's pan, including sitting in it (not attached to the mount :shock: [not a good idea when moving things around with no body as back up in case you tip the seat over]) to see if using the new turning brake assy, as is even with shortening the handles, would be possible. If I moved the seat mount to the rear some more then maybe I can keep the seat upholstery away from the body in the most forward position but then that limits some of the people in our group from using the buggy. The seats are just too wide for any other position and off-set (currently the seat is off-set on the seat mounts more toward the center of the pan.

(redundant discussion) Since the passenger seat is going to be in a fixed location and more centered on the pan so is not part of the mix (the fixed seat is to eliminate the passenger from blocking the view (if they are sitting with the seat in a forward position with the driver in a position more towards the rear) as much as possible.

Still looking into options w/o buying new seats which would set my wife off and... :shock: :lol: .

Lee

Post Reply