003/090/010 Automatic parts/tech data

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003/090/010 Automatic parts/tech data

Post by Piledriver » Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:53 pm

Seeking perfect clarity on exactly which seals need to be regularly replaced to keep the ATF out of the gear oil and vice versa... (Ray Greenwood suggested changing on schedule @~50-70K miles)
This prevents munching the ring and pinion, as dexron 3 doesn't make it for hypoid gears..


So far:
1)010/090 seals are #089-409-529D (transmission can to differential seals around shaft. for pinion)
TWO are required.
This pair of seals (one on trans side and one on diff side, at least on the 090) are the primary suspects that need regular replacement.

Can you do the job with ONLY those seals or are there others that need replaced due to splitting the diff from the trans?

For the 003 pinion seals, still tryingto confirm #, and if it gets two.
(based on reading several build threads, two, one on each section, is correct, but part# not confirmed)
(Work in progress) found callout of TIMKEN 223010 for 1973 squareback automatic transmission pinion seal...
Interestingly, this is a ALSO called out as the tq converter seal for all 68-92 VW automatics...
cross references to Audi# 010-409-085D/E

2)The factory torque converter seals are part#003-519-089D (003/010/089 all same)
Installing two is not technically required but strongly recommended (for redundancy)

"Do not get gear oil on these soft silicone seals.
If that occurs, cleaning them apparently does not work: Discard and buy new."
(...This per multiple sources, i'm personally kinda dubious silicone seals are smart enough to know one hydrocarbon oil from another almost identical hydrocarbon with EP additives)

Note the above Timken part# that is called out for both pinion shaft and Tq converter seals must work with both ATF and gear oil, assuming the cross reference is correct. It is likely not a soft silicone seal, silicone is about the worst possible choice in a rotating seal as to wear, Viton or many other choices are ~100x better in a moving seal...

BTW---Cobra Transmission shows the brake bands for the 003 in Kevlar... need to ask on the frictions.
They make the kevlar brake bands, exchange.
Last edited by Piledriver on Sat Apr 08, 2017 11:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 003/090/010 Automatic "differential seals" "pinion seals"

Post by Piledriver » Thu Apr 06, 2017 5:11 pm

Still no confirmation on the 003 pinion seals, so I'll order a few and see for myself.
EDIT--- Tore it apart and looked.
Tearing the diff assy out of the final drive took maybe 3 minutes, very easy.
The magnesium final drive outer housing is amazingly light, like lift with an extended pinky light, I may have bought heavier loaves of bread.

These are the famous ATF leaking "diff killer" seals--- Both of the pinion shaft seals are 003-519-085A
in post below, Page 5-18, item#4

The easy one to replace on the end of the can, doesn't seem to be shown, but its there, is shown in the Bentley, and is obvious when you split the trans can and diff.

That one is easy to get to at the back of the diff housing, (pull out the diff insert) and only sees splash oil from ATF side and one of the pinion bearings. Install it with the lip towards the diff, regardless of how it was installed.

The OTHER, buried pinion seal is at the other end of the pinion shaft, behind the tq converter seal.
THAT one literally seals the tq converter return oil passage from the diff..
Either one can probably fill up the diff with ATF, but the one behind the tq converter seal can likely do it in a hurry.
(I visualize that as "most likely to fail")

The buried pinion seal physically lives directly behind the tq converter seal, but it sadly does not appear you can get at it from there, the pinion shaft and rear bearing race must come out. (you can't even see it due to the coaxial shaft setup) I'm not sure which way would be best to install yet (lip towards diff or towards converter)

Did find a transmission friction specialist who will very merrily reline stock 003 frictions and bands with hipo kevlar or Raybestos carbon metallic lining for ~same price as stock, and even set custom thickness. :twisted: :D
(The friction material itself is a ~insignificant cost per part as % of fabrication, even for the carbon metallic, and it all comes in near net thickness rolls or thin sheets anyway)

They are a (re)manufacturer, and usually don't sell direct, but will as its an oddball their distributors won't touch.
Will see how it goes...
Need to see if I can score some extra thin steels to get more friction discs in.
Last edited by Piledriver on Mon Apr 10, 2017 3:17 am, edited 8 times in total.
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Re: 003/090/010 Automatic "differential seals" "pinion seals"

Post by Piledriver » Sat Apr 08, 2017 2:06 pm

Ray Greenwood sent factory exploded parts breakdown for a VW 003.
Not sure what book these are from but its chapters 3 and 5, exploded/illustrated parts breakdown.
Let us test the new board softwares uploaded pictures per post setting:
It's >=ten, but there is a limit. Beats the hell out of 3.

Note: Must load to list in reverse order.

Here's section 3: (003 transmission can)
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Re: 003/090/010 Automatic parts/tech data

Post by Piledriver » Sat Apr 08, 2017 11:50 pm

003 illustrated parts breakdown section 5: Type4 (411/412) final drive/diff section (almost same as later T3, output stubs differ, possibly R&P choices differ)

Very annoyingly, the output/pinion shaft seal going into the diff from the automatic trans can is not shown that I can see.
That's one critical seal that keeps ATF out of the hypoid gear oil and vice-versa.

5-18 item#4 is also a pinion shaft seal, looks like it that isolates the ATF going to the converter from the diff,
I suspect the one behind the tq converter seal is the main ATF leaking>diff killing culprit as its probably under pressure, not just splashed ATF like the one at the input to the diff.

In my mind (not having done this yet, calling Ray???) need to replace both, so the diff must come out of the outer housing.

ATF in the diff is fatal for the diff.(kills ring and pinion as well as the bearings which get trashed by the wear junk from the dying R&P)
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Re: 003/090/010 Automatic parts/tech data

Post by Piledriver » Sat Apr 08, 2017 11:58 pm

Found something delightful re: T3 vs T4 flex plates...
I have a perfect T1 flex plate, and a torn up T4 flex plate, but the t4s crank hub is savable, just light surface rust.

The hubs that actually bolt to the crank are riveted onto the flex plates with 10 solid rivets.
The flex plates themselves are identical, and the hubs appear to be a press fit into the plate.

Unless someone wants to swap a good T4 flex plate for a good std T3 version I'll be grinding/popping out the rivets and doing some TIG welding.once I refinish the T4 hub.

I bet those hubs are forged...
I wonder if it could fit the old Crown aluminum flywheel I was going to turn into a clock?
Last edited by Piledriver on Sun Apr 09, 2017 12:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 003/090/010 Automatic parts/tech data

Post by Piledriver » Sun Apr 09, 2017 12:12 am

For reference, the t3 auto width stub to stub is 10", nominal.
Drivers side is 4", passenger side is 6" from centerline. (this measured with a builder square so +/- ~1/8")

The 003 input shaft and output shaft are fully coaxial/on centerline, its the diff/output stubs that's offset.

For comparison, an 091 Bus trans is 11" flange to flange (nominal) and a T1/T3 manual must be very close to that, maybe 1/4" less, I have stuffed a 091 in a t1 with std axles with no apparent issues, although they make slightly shorter axles specifically for that swap.

If I keep the pass weld on flange to ~3/8", you could offset the trans about an inch, and make the width ~11" with the drivers side flange addition, and use std manual axles. (In my case, Vanagon manual axles, due to 944T rear arms)

(an 091 bus trans input shaft/bell housing is offset ~19mm to the right of centerline, so it may end up very close to same, just in opposite direction)

I have an early 003 with the 5 bolt flanges that hold the drive stubs in place.
To convert that setup to T4 flanges will require replacing the studs and nuts with flat head/countersunk M6 machine screws, countersink the flanges to match, and welding on flanges that stick out some, with a notch for screw access.

I assume all T4 versions (1970+) of the 003 had the later stub/case style, similar to a Porsche 901, held in place with long bolts through the center into the diff side gears.
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Re: 003/090/010 Automatic parts/tech data

Post by raygreenwood » Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:18 am

Nice thread! Yes...now that you point out #4...the pinion seal....it makes sense that its in the diagram...but my mind was ignoring it because it looks like a washer!

The other "diff" killer...is the governor shaft seal. Note that the governor has a fluid port that keeps it filled with ATF....and a drive shaft off the pinion shaft. If that seal fails...it fills the Diff with ATF and death ensues. Ray

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Re: 003/090/010 Automatic parts/tech data

Post by Piledriver » Mon Apr 10, 2017 12:59 pm

I have pretty much settled on using Redline D4 or D6 for ATF...
D4 is Dexron III ATF with a GL-4 rating as well, D6 is Dex VI + GL-4.

Then if it leaks D4 or D6 into the diff, its leaking a gl-4 rated gear oil into the gl-4 gear oil.

I asked Redline if you could just use D4 in the diff but they said that their MT-90 is the recommended gl-4 gear oil. I suspect the hypoid gears are better off with std gear oil.

I'd prefer to run same in both and set up the diff to properly recirculate but that's asking too much.
Could probably be achieved by leaving out the behind tq converter pinion seal and drilling a hole at the right oil level.
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Re: 003/090/010 Automatic parts/tech data

Post by Piledriver » Sun Jun 18, 2017 7:35 pm

here's a pic of the harder to get at rear pinion seal, the ring/diff & pinion must be removed, but as long as you mark everything as to where it goes and orientation it comes apart and goes back together quite easily/quickly,

The outer race ID of the bearing is much larger than the seal OD, so its an easy out/in on the seal, which goes lip towards the tq converter and only flush. The identical front pinion seal is the one you can see where the pinion shaft goes into the diff assy, it goes lip IN, as its not really trying to stop the return ATF from the tq converter as the rear seal is.

There exist dual lip seals for this application, considered going there but the Transstar seal set from Cobra Transmission had the Timken single lips, so I'll run them.

Here's the pinions view of the rear pinion seal:
pinion-seal-rear.jpg
The Cobra master kit also contained Attomatic steels and frictions, the green frictions were identified as Raybestos "High Energy" semi-metallic friction material. Attomatic is a division of Raybestos.

My friction band supplier recommended NOT to replace the new friction linings as it was what they would have recommended to put on it, but the bands are now Carbon Metallic.
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