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 Post subject: build me up/talk me down
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:51 pm 
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I am looking for some sage advice from those of you who have owned these damn things before, speciically squares. I have a friend who offered me a square for free fifty free a while back. if its still available, i need to decide if i want it. currently i have a parts bay that i am holding onto till my next bay (got one picked out, coming home in the spring) so this would be project #2. the things is its really rotted he says, i have yet ot see it. but he says its complete, and has no reason to run me around.

my goals would be a quick patch job, rusty in NE means swiss cheese in most states. enough to keep water out and inspection passing. maybe cage it if the sturcutre is fading (how different are they from bugs?) I should have a spare T4 motor to throw in it by then, a real small one since this is a SA 65. I would love to go IRS though, but i will have too many projets for that any time soon. it would be fun to rally it till it fell apart on me, or make it a bit of a work car by flattening out the rear seats and building a roof rack for it, cause if i get a nice Westy i won't want to haul stuff in it like i did my old one.

i have a tubing bender and a welder, but if this turns into a multi year patch job for a 2 year beater, I will hate myself.

i think i need to be talked down, but the price is so hard to resist, and squares are one of my favorite VWs, based on looks alone. I need to move ot a big plot in NH...

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 Post subject: Re: build me up/talk me down
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 3:02 pm 
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If the rust looks like something you can deal with, the next concerns would be suspension (primarily front, unless the rear torsion's cancered out) and brakes - it's not easy finding good early III drumbrake parts, probably will be easier to convert to disk/drum 4-lug stuff.
The III front end is unique, made of stamped-steel weldments and bolted to the chassis with rubber-insulated mounts. It uses actual round torsion bars, one in each lower arm which cross at the center - the upper arms are tied together by an integral swaybar and the endplay requires periodic adjustment which is usually overlooked, leading to component damage - and the repair parts have been unobtainable for many years now. Simplest solution may be to find an entire later-model front end/brakes somewhere outside of the rust belt and have it shipped in.
Converting to IRS could be done the same way as on a Beetle, by welding in pivot points (this way you retain the frame horns) or by fabricating a subframe sturdy enough to hang the engine by its rear end and bolting in a rear torsion assembly from an IRS III.


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 Post subject: Re: build me up/talk me down
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:15 pm 
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Free-fity-free is a great price, worst case scenario you part it out and make a few bucks to help fund your other project. Post some pics of it then we can offer up a little more specific advice. Marc's right, the early front brake components are getting hard to find, on TOS there is a thread in the type 3 section about piecing together a wide 5 disc brake kit that also narrows the front track about 1-2". My '65 got the 4 lug swap from the PO, parts for that are very common plus I just converted it all to 5x130. I got the stock SA tranny in mine still, it's holding up to street use with a 2L type 4 motor, I doubt it will last long on the track. If you fab some rear hanger mounts on the body you just need to swap in a IRS subframe, or you can do as marc suggested and weld in some pivots, I think clatter has a modified jig for doing that. I got a late model irs subframe and front beam for $25 recently and you can always do a conversion type 1 beam if all else fails (frowned upon on the TOS).

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 Post subject: Re: build me up/talk me down
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:32 pm 
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supaninja wrote:
...If you fab some rear hanger mounts on the body you just need to swap in a IRS subframe...
That's ambitious undertaking even with a sound, rust-free swingaxle body - considerable structure was added on the IRS cars to allow hanging the engine from the body. On a rust-bucket, it'll probably be better to just build a subframe from tubing. The IV's going to be heavier than a III as well.
This will also facilitate the slight lower mounting position you'll want if you'll be using a dual-carb Type IV motor.


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 Post subject: Re: build me up/talk me down
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 6:30 pm 
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I still have my horns, and they just aren't up to the task of handling the weight/tq, so my buddy Eric Anderson welded some 1/8" strap to the inside fenderwell and I bolt the bus rear hanger to that. Made a huge difference.

Your right marc, pivots and a kafer cup style brace would do it. control arms and spring plates are the same as type 1's.

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 Post subject: Re: build me up/talk me down
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 6:37 pm 
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The point I'm trying to make clear is that the Type III IRS subframe does NOT have any frame horns. A bolt-in Kafer Cup bar would be of no help, you'd need to fabricate a much more complete subframe.


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 Post subject: Re: build me up/talk me down
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:48 pm 
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Supa posted a nice possible solution to that awhile back.
Berrien Buggy sells nice looking weld up/on CrMo tubular "frame horns" for ~$90 shipped.

Weld that on the IRS torsion, add kafer brace, done.

http://www.berrienbuggy.com/id82.htm

Their website is flaky framed junk, click on "tubular frame horns" in the above link.

I already have a decent setup, but I have... plans... for the space that would be vacated by the rear bar etc.

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 Post subject: Re: build me up/talk me down
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:04 pm 
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I like that. Especially for this project, since it could all be unbolted from the rustbucket and used elsewhere when its final day comes....


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 Post subject: Re: build me up/talk me down
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:17 pm 
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damn it guys! now i need to go out and actually see the car. never laid eyes on it.


converting the beam to bug sounds nice, I have heard of the beam wear issues. this would be a budget car, you konw just make it work , cut holes as needed and weld weld weld. I thought converting to IRS was just a matter of finding a donoer IRS T3 and bolting/unbolting. however you say i can use a bug style IRS conversion kit? I have heard folks talking about those and seen a few pics, they look pretty simple doing.

too many irons, not enough fires.

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give a man a watch and he'll allways know what time it is. give him two and he can never be sure again.

Things are rarely just crazy enough to work, but they're frequently just crazy enough to fail hilariously.


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 Post subject: Re: build me up/talk me down
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 2:26 pm 
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fusername wrote:
...I thought converting to IRS was just a matter of finding a donoer IRS T3 and bolting/unbolting....
Nope, since the IRS suspension subframe lacks framehorns you either need to add them, or weld in IRS pivot points to the swingaxle subframe - the swingaxle body isn't stout enough to hang the entire drivetrain from (even if sound), but if you've got frame horns to carry the majority of the load you can add mount-points for the moustache bar. Look at an IRS III, you'll see how the mount points are integrated into the body sheetmetal.


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 Post subject: Re: build me up/talk me down
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 2:36 pm 
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I think if fuser is willing to weld reinforcements to the body it can be made plenty stout. Another thing to help with bearing the weight is to weld some tubing or square stock across the shock mount towers, then mount some arms to a rear tranny mount bracket. That would be a kind of ghetto kafer brace but it would support most of the weight of the drive train, but not as slick as the chromoly frame horns that Pile post the link too.

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 Post subject: Re: build me up/talk me down
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 10:15 pm 
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The weld on frame horns on a IRS T3 torsion is the path of least resistance/least work/sane.
If I had known about them before I did mine I would have done that in a heartbeat, MUCH less work.

...unless you already have the jigs/parts etc to do the IRS mod to the SA torsion and preferably have done it a few times, I wouldn't go there.
The factory frame horns are not all that strong even if NOT rusted.

At least the T3 torsions all unbolt, so you wouldn't have to do the IRS pickups hard work under the car.

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Piledrivers extensions of Newtons first law:
A vehicle on jackstands tends to remain that way.
Further:
The longer it stays on jackstands the more money will be needed to get it back off.


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