How far(hp) can u go with Type3 runners and manifold? turbo?

[Munchhausen]

Hi,

have laying around a stock djet 1600 engine. Now im thinking about to do something with it.
At first i will say that iam not shure if i will ever built this engine (but iam hopefull i will once). But i want to say:" Iam nearly ready because i already built the engine with the guys in the forum" .
Would like to stay with the original runners, manifold and perhaps the airfilter. Would like to have stockish look.
EFI would be MS with new injectors, fpr etc..
Ignition would be TSZH distributor. Maybe with cranktrigger plus one on in the dissy for fullseq. injection.
So what would be the max. bore, stroke, cam to get max. hp.
When do the intake side become to restrictive? Any experiences?

I am not so familiar with the engine-tuning thing, but allready build a MS EFI.

munch

[supaninja]

From what I have been reading on TOS not very much, pretty much just a mild 1776, my guess would be around 75-80 hp. If you want to get creative and still keep it looking kinda stock then could use the intake from a 2.1L vanagon. The flange that mates to the head will need lots of porting to match the t1/t3 head intake ports.

[Munchhausen]

The 2,1L Runners from the vanagon are even bigger than the ones from the 2L Type4.
Its easier to make complete new runners than modifing the vanagon ones i guess.
Here in germany we have a guy who made 100hp+ with the mexican beetle intake. If i remember right its a 1776 with W110. But when i compare the mexican with the t3 intake i would guess the t3 is flowing better at least cause of its existing manifold.
Around 75-80 hp wouldnt worth the effort. 100hp should it minimum be.
Whats the real next limitation? The runners or the throttle?
Both i guess

[supaninja]

There are formula's for calculating ideal runner ID and length as well as plenum volume and TB diameter. You can't go wrong with a 2L engine, then calculate what size runners, plenum, and TB you would need. After all that it won't be very stock looking and you might as well run some ITB's and really unlock the power of that motor.

[Piledriver]

I think it would be an excellent running setup w/ perhaps one of the milder off road restrictor plate cams and decent compression/exhaust.

The runners are small and long, and the plenum is tiny--- Probably very nearly perfect for the factory desired power curve and displacement, but the power curve will shift lower down (RPM wise) as you go up in displacement, all else being equal.

You could probably pull >100HP out of it with decent compression from a ~2L and have a nice down low/fat tq curve, but it will run out of air early.

Probably awesome for a driver, not so much for drag racing bragging rights.

Only as an example---I'm running stock 2L 914 heads with minor massaging (so ~180 CFM@28" hg intake) 2L runners and a widened Vanagon plenum, bit more volume than the 2L plenum, air cleaner hanging directly off TB on a 1.8 T4, web73 (very mild cam, almost stock plus, OK for djet etc) ...
It runs pretty good at low/midrange, but definitely wakes up @~3200 RPM... It accelerates MUCH harder from 70-90 than it does from 60-70 MPH in 4th.
(haven't pushed it harder as I refuse to pay the stupid tax, but it's accelerating harder at 90 than at 70)

That same motor is all bottom end/midrange with the smaller 2L bus std plenum/runners and long TB feed tube---
The intake/exhaust tuning matters. A lot... as much or more than the cam, at least as it pertains to tq/hp peaks.

WBX Vanagon runners are about the same diameter as the 914 runners (maybe 1 mm larger), but much shorter.
I think the trick there is the port entry angle and the resulting huge turbulence/mixing the Vanagon manifolds provide--- I'm sure that wasn't an accident. (Take a close look and you'll understand, airflow makes a hard ~90 degree turn at the port face)

It certainly hurts airflow, but likely does wonders for the air/fuel mix quality.

[Munchhausen]

Ok, thats all a little bit disillusioning.(size matters )

Had short look at the engine. With alot of work its may possible to open up the plenum slightly for, lets say, 2mm more diameter for the runners and same for throttle. With a small spacer attached to the backplate of the plenum i could increase plenum volume abit. Ending up with total custom runners. Would still look stockish, a lot of fab.work, having 10hp more No good idea

The 2L down low/fat tq thing remembers me to much of my 2L type4 i have right now.

Another idea, before i say its good for nothing, would be a mileage engine.
76x77 with 1300 DP heads and full seq. injection. The t3 djet engine has maybe the best stock intake of all ACVWs for that.
Could this have good results? Any experiences? Would also be a great reason to go MS3

[Piledriver]

It might be a good EXCUSE to go MS3 but you can pretty easily go sequential with MS2, esp using the MS3X for I/O and the MS2X adapter board.
All connectorized etc.

If you are already MS2 it saves you quite a few $, and you can easily upgrade later.
(obviously requires a MS3 enclosure, $2 extra if you are ordering an MS2)

I have been trying to get to making an MS1 version as it has more IO that could make better use of the MS3X in some ways.

[Munchhausen]

It might be a good EXCUSE to go MS3 but you can pretty easily go sequential with MS2, esp using the MS3X for I/O and the MS2X adapter board.
All connectorized etc.

Have to do readings about the MS3 and the adapter boards.
Most interessting is the differences between MS3 and 2. when making seq. on a 4cyl. Just saw some things like sampling MAP at different crank angles at different rpm´s. These are MS3 functions only?
For shure i want to go seq. Just have to decide if i do it with MS2 or 3. At the end my wallet will make the decision for me (Why going MS2 when you can get MS3)

I have been trying to get to making an MS1 version as it has more IO that could make better use of the MS3X in some ways.

? MS1 more IOs ? Never had really a look on MS1, started with MS2.

[Munchhausen]

Made a desicion.
Will go turbo with the engine. Want to stay stock pistons and cam. Should be a kind of cheap test (learning) engine to blow up .
Plan by now is to use stronger valve springs, stainless steal exhaustvalves and 8dowel flywheel with stronger clutch. External oilcooler plus additional oil sump, thats it.
Beside the turboselection, i have to find out if i have to modifie the throttle for pressure and where to place the turbo with intercooler.

Any recommendation?
How long will the stock cam and stock lifters stand the stronger springs?
How big is the advantage of "forged" pistons or even a must?

Munch

[Piledriver]

Forged pistons can tolerate a bad tune for a few more... seconds...
They tend to droop rather than shatter, might give you a chance to shut down and save something.

I'd consider a welded CW crank so you can spin it a bit harder.
(they don't really cost much in stock stroke and the stock crank is excellent if CW properly)

The stock cam/lifters can tolerate fine, but a bit of a limiter.

Perhaps 1.4 rockers?

Don't forget Bob Hoovers oiling mods.

[Munchhausen]

Forged pistons can tolerate a bad tune for a few more... seconds...
They tend to droop rather than shatter, might give you a chance to shut down and save something.

Ok, when its in the budget in the end i will go forged. But as more stock parts are used the cheaper the fix is after blow up.

I'd consider a welded CW crank so you can spin it a bit harder.
(they don't really cost much in stock stroke and the stock crank is excellent if CW properly)

How far can i rev with t3 coolingfan. Maybe thats a limitation which makes a CW crank an overkill?

The stock cam/lifters can tolerate fine, but a bit of a limiter.

sounds sufficient

Perhaps 1.4 rockers?

when its in the budget, maybe. But its more like a test than a search of max hp.

Don't forget Bob Hoovers oiling mods.

You mean this here?: http://bobhooversblog.blogspot.com/2007 ... -mods.html
Never saw it before. Sounds like i should do it.

Which stainless steal exhaust valves are good, and where can i buy it? (will have a visit from the states next month, maybe she can bring some with)

munch

[Corysvdub]

Hey munch have you turboed that type 3 yet?

[Munchhausen]

No But still my current project. Time is my biggest enemy, small kids, new (old) house and new job blablabla.
Most progress made on reading, cause iam new to turbos. Read "Turbomania" and "Maximum Boost" several times
On the action side are just: heads cleaned (no cracks)
engine tin overhauled (new paint)
triggerwheel mounted on fan.

Parallel i am still fiddeling around with my current T4 megasquirt engine which actualy moves the car pretty well but not well enough.

At the moment the plan is to go 1500 P/C cause laying around and hopefull stronger than the 1600 stock ones.
No bob hoover mod, because i dont want to spent to much time on parts which i have to make new when i blow the engine. Also have laying around a webcam111 which i want to use instead of ratio rockers.

Stay tuned for the next 100years and you will see the engine running, hahaha

munch

[Corysvdub]

What's the latest on your project munch?

[Munchhausen]

Stay tuned for the next 100years and you will see the engine running, hahaha

munch

I promise to write here if something is going on.