DBW air cooled

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ps2375
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Re: DBW air cooled

Post by ps2375 » Tue Sep 06, 2016 3:25 pm

If I wanted DBW, I'd buy a new car. I can see EFI, I've considered it on my Bug, but only for moments. But even on my other car that I had put MS on, never did I consider or want DBW. Even the cars that I worked on that had DBW, did I consider it a "good" thing. It was an "evil", not a needed "evil", but just an "evil" that the manufacturer put on there for who knows why. It definitely made it impossible to left foot brake at an autocross. It could be considered "good" for repair shops, as sensors and stepper motors fail, throw codes and leave people stranded, so "good" to sell parts, labor and clear codes.

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Piledriver
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Re: DBW air cooled

Post by Piledriver » Tue Sep 06, 2016 9:52 pm

emerald wrote:I tried to stay away from the DBW thing for long time but now things are a lot better than they was back in the late 90s most good ECUs can do DBW now so what is the hang up ????

Lawyers. :evil:

Note that MSExtra does DBW literally like GM does it, through a stand alone real time DBW control module, separate from the ECU... Using the GM DBW controller.

B&G isn't a huge $$$ operation. There are two MSextra developers, AFAIK part time, with a bit of help from users now and then, usually scratching their own itch for some feature they wanted that's not on the roadmap.

The GM DBW module probably has about a million hours of testing ~every possible scenario, incorporates all the safety logic and failsafes, so the MS simply controls it via CAN.(just like the GM ECU does)

That's sane, safe to do from a literal and ~legal liability standpoint, as well as being perfectly effective.
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emerald
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Re: DBW air cooled

Post by emerald » Wed Sep 07, 2016 8:00 am

We use OEM VW parts for this just for there track record of not just shutting down on you .Like i said we have to keep up with what is going on out there .This is not going to sit well with a lot of guys and girls out there but i had the same thing when i did EFI and turbo back in 95 when i was back in the UK they all said it would not catch on but James from State Side tuning and Emerald m3d helped me back to make this work on a 1776cc engine that made 170bhp at the time .We need to get a grip on this sooner than later i am just saying

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ps2375
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Re: DBW air cooled

Post by ps2375 » Wed Sep 07, 2016 9:01 am

Why? I don't see any real need to eliminate the cable just to add complexity. There is no added performance, economy nor safety or reduction of emissions. It's only there cause it can be done.

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Piledriver
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Re: DBW air cooled

Post by Piledriver » Wed Sep 07, 2016 2:28 pm

Its needed because a lot of modern vehicles have it, and retrofitting a manual throttle is a hassle at least or very difficult at worst.

Doing it just for the sake of doing it is pretty worthless, but that's not the use case.

If VW uses a stand alone DBW controller, or someone starts selling an aftermarket stand alone DBW controller that's fully regression tested etc it might happen. The GM one works.

For a small company, one unintended acceleration/stalled in traffic/lost control lawsuit, even if BS and you won, means you are out of business.

The only ones that always win in court are lawyers.
That is no accident.
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ps2375
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Re: DBW air cooled

Post by ps2375 » Wed Sep 07, 2016 2:47 pm

But we're not talking about a "modern vehicle", not even a "modern" powerplant in this thread. I wouldn't even consider a standalone ECU for any street-driven car newer than 1996 due to having to pass emissions, which in the two local counties are fault code based tests for OBDII(1996) and later vehicles. OBDI and earlier are 2 gas sniffer, which with a standalone ECU are super easy to pass.

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Re: DBW air cooled

Post by Piledriver » Wed Sep 07, 2016 9:07 pm

ps2375 wrote:But we're not talking about a "modern vehicle", not even a "modern" powerplant in this thread. I wouldn't even consider a standalone ECU for any street-driven car newer than 1996 due to having to pass emissions, which in the two local counties are fault code based tests for OBDII(1996) and later vehicles. OBDI and earlier are 2 gas sniffer, which with a standalone ECU are super easy to pass.
Because Race Car.
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ps2375
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Re: DBW air cooled

Post by ps2375 » Thu Sep 08, 2016 9:54 am

Piledriver wrote:Because Race Car.
A well worn response, but prolly the easiest car to mod a cable into/for and the last place I'd personally want DBW.

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Re: DBW air cooled

Post by emerald » Fri Sep 09, 2016 8:41 am

ps2375 wrote:Why? I don't see any real need to eliminate the cable just to add complexity. There is no added performance, economy nor safety or reduction of emissions. It's only there cause it can be done.
I hope this works but if you look at my engine bay you will that there was not a good way to go wit the cable
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I did look at all ways to do this with out DBW but this is the way to go on this one


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ps2375
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Re: DBW air cooled

Post by ps2375 » Fri Sep 09, 2016 10:28 pm

You managed to squeeze all that in there, so, I don't know.

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Re: DBW air cooled

Post by emerald » Fri Sep 16, 2016 2:07 pm

[quote="ps2375"]You managed to squeeze all that in there, so, I don't know.[/quot

i think we need to just take note of what we can do to keep up whit what is going on in the performance market
I an just saying

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Re: DBW air cooled

Post by Piledriver » Sat Sep 17, 2016 1:23 am

emerald wrote:
ps2375 wrote:You managed to squeeze all that in there, so, I don't know.[/quot

i think we need to just take note of what we can do to keep up whit what is going on in the performance market
I an just saying
For that specific setup, it may help.
Most folks would have fed the dual intercoolers to ITBs and used a std throttle linkage setup, or better, a split cable linkage like a Synclink..

MS supports in any case, just use a GM DBW TB and controller. There are many choices.
It's a non issue.
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Re: DBW air cooled

Post by Crawdad » Sat Sep 17, 2016 3:32 pm

In the motorcycle word, DBW has been a very welcome development because it allows you to have multiple throttle maps (e.g. "rain mode"). The cable equivalent would be if you could magically swap out different cable-wrap profiles (there must be a better term for what I mean) at the throttle, on the fly.

In other words, at any given point in the pedal's travel, for a given amount of movement at the pedal you can assign however much travel at the butterflies that you want. It would be nice to have a map that gives you a gentle throttle tip-in off idle without having to execute minute control of your foot, then ramps up and becomes "quicker" in the middle of its travel. It could be a real help for drivability. You might develop a map that works well for drag launches too, assuming you are traction-limited and therefore not at full throttle on the launch.

On motorcycles, rain mode is one where the butterflies react only so quickly, no matter how quickly you twist the grip. It relieves you of the effort required to ride smoothly.

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Re: DBW air cooled

Post by Crawdad » Sat Sep 17, 2016 3:42 pm

One more thought. Your ankle (or wrist, as the case may be) has only so much travel in it. If you're riding a 200 hp bike, you really don't want to have the first 10 percent of your throttle travel mapped onto a few millimeters of wrist-travel, because when you hit a bump you might do a wheelie! (I call this bump-throttle.)
Similarly, I'm thinking it could be nice for high-HP VWs.

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