Is E10 ethanol gas OK for my classic Beetle or ?

[Jim Ed]

Is E10 ethanol gas OK for my classic Beetle or should I go out of my way to get 100% pure gasoline?
I was filling up at our local Sam's Warehouse but, they switched over to E10 gas.
I thought it might be OK to use if I added Marine Stabil or Startron fuel additive.
What do you recommend?
TIA!

[aircooledtechguy]

You should be fine. That's all I can get around here without going out of my way and I've never had an issue running it. If you have rust in your tank, it will wash it down into your filter more than regular gas, but wouldn't sweat it. Just change your filter and drive happy.

[Jim Ed]

I found this John C. of http://www.aircooled.net/ wrote at http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=470177

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 2:23 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

Ethanol is horrible. Our SUV loses 30-40 miles per tank on E10 vs. Gasoline. It's another invisible "tax" on people, you think you are buying a gallon of fuel but you aren't, you are buying .8 Gallons.....
--------------- and he wrote ------------------

PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 2:45 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

I found a gas station that sells pure gasoline, so I buy all fuel there. It's a Shell station, FWIW.
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[Jim Ed]

I have already replaced most of my stock 5.5 I.D. fuel hoses with Gates F.I. Multi-fuel hoses.
I have a spare carburetor and spare fuel pumps.
I suppose I am ready for any damage caused by E10 ethanol Gas.
I will continue to fill up at stations that sell Pure gasoline though and use a good ethanol stabilizer.
I hope this helps. I'm not trying to be no band leader.

[Ol'fogasaurus]

Some carburetors' seem to be more susceptible to the ethanol eating them up than others do. My experience has been that the additives that are supposed to protect fuel systems from the ethanol don't work well especially after sitting in the fuel mixture for any length of time. Stheal carbs seem to be one example of those who don't like it at all and they are expensive to fix.

The only people who seem to be gaining anything from the blend is those who are growing the makings for the ethanol. I'm also not sure that the 10% mix is always 10% but maybe more (rumors).

Lee

[Piledriver]

Higher than E10 (from an E10 pump) is quite illegal, and will eat things pretty quickly if not set up for it.
They are trying to push E15 but its going to require separate pumps, as most older cars cant deal with it, even with changing the fuel lines etc. I just hope it doesn't displace the few E85 pumps around.

OTOH the EPA wants all old cars off the road. Period.

The "german" braid covered line is lucky to last 6 months with E10---don't use it, at all. FIRE, FIRE.
Use multifuel line, everywhere, or park it.

I get almost the same mileage on E85, E70 etc as with E10 or E0, but I have a fully programmable EFI/ignition setup with an alcohol % sensor that is designed to make the best use of what it's dealt. (worst mileage/performance seems to be about E50)
Having the AC on seems to have more of an effect.

I can see how a huge gas sucking rig would see a noticable reduction in range with E10 though, esp if not a flex fuel capable rig.

The only non blended fuel around here is ~$7(last time I looked) a gallon 100 octane for boats, available at my corner gas station. E10 in boat engines is considered BAD.

[Ol'fogasaurus]

There are several guys doing their own checks on fuel (mostly in OR) that claim that the 10% is often surpassed and closer to 15% which I personally doubt but then ...

I believe what you are saying about the purdy fuel lines but I suspect that most of the fuel lines, unless they are specific to alcholol: metal braided cover, fabric braided, etc. or not, are susptable to the properties of E-10. (sorry about the spelling but it is too earily in the am)

[jhoefer]

Any actual fuel hose made in the last 30 years will be fine with E10. Buy it from any autoparts store and you'll be fine. The cheap rubber hose some on-line places sell is not. If you're concerned about it, 30R9 or 30R14 rated hose will be fine even for 100% ethanol. And if you're really paranoid, use teflon hose.

[Piledriver]

I have personally seen off the shelf SAE30 R7 and R9 purchased from major auto parts chains disintegrate in 6 months, this was not too long ago. It wouldn't surprise me if it was counterfeit.

Newer hose is better, but it will also be marked as multifuel.

I run e85 most of the year and no issues.
(Other than its usually ~E70)

[raygreenwood]

Any actual fuel hose made in the last 30 years will be fine with E10. Buy it from any autoparts store and you'll be fine. The cheap rubber hose some on-line places sell is not. If you're concerned about it, 30R9 or 30R14 rated hose will be fine even for 100% ethanol. And if you're really paranoid, use teflon hose.

I have personally seen off the shelf SAE30 R7 and R9 purchased from major auto parts chains disintegrate in 6 months, this was not too long ago. It wouldn't surprise me if it was counterfeit.

Newer hose is better, but it will also be marked as multifuel.

I run e85 most of the year and no issues.
(Other than its usually ~E70)

Jhoefer
Piledriver is correct. There have been issues even with R7 and R9.

Also its NOT the formula of the rubber that is causing this failure. It most probably the raw ingredients. Every rubber parts maker in every industry is having issues.

Also since about 2000...the vast majority of new cars are being shipped with very little rubber fuel line at all. Most is one of two different formulas of nylon alloy....because of these very problems.

Its cheaper and has no issues with alcohol or diesel...and allows the OEMS to make the car and forget about any fuel related fuel line deterioration warranty issues far past any warranty period.

What little rubber I find in the newer car fuel systems is usually only in very high vibration and sharp bend radius areas that are difficult to mold nylon in...like end of fuel rail curve and connection to FPR...and sometimes return line connections...but thats it. And almost all of those parts are discrete moldings or have swaged and crimped fittings so when replacement comes its a quicky bolt in.

Also teflon makes hideous and dangerous fuel line. It has virtually no impact resistance. Teflon used for brake lines is used in short runs and is always sheathed in stainless braid for abrasion resistance. The ONLY reason its used in brakes is because it needs to withstand a combination of ester based oil and high heat....which nylon cannot do as well.

But for fuel....nylon beats the pants off of teflon in both cost, hardness, tensile strength and is equal in fuel resistance. Ray

[Piledriver]

If I could run all the flex in jacketed formed nylon I would, its just nontrivial to fit "normal" fittings to.
(but not impossible with a little help from a VERY well controlled heat source and some funky tooling, process is everything)

Good multifuel rated Gates etc hose CAN be bought, it isn't even any more expensive.
(Actually ~infinitely cheaper than a burned out car in any case)
Brake line for the steel parts/long runs, reduced bubble flare on each end and a good EFI clamp/line can take ~200 PSI easily.
My 044 puts out ~180 dead headed, although now I'd consider testing it with compressed air since I have a couple AC recovery units that can push >800 PSI if desired. (safety shutdown switch is ~830 PSI, modern AC service lines are burst rated to 3000 PSI, Kevlar is good stuff)

Have had no issues with my fuel system, but I still inspect the lines regularly.

[shepherd]

As I am going to a fuel injected system, I just disassembled the fuel system on my beetle. This is all new R9 lines that I installed 18 months ago. They are currently in piss poor shape, and the regulator and carb bowls are full of some black/ grey sludge, so I will attest to E10 wrecking the hose. Not to mention the rust in a previously spotless tank. Not sure what to do about the tank for the future, but I have gone to Stainless hardline and teflon flex lines for the EFI.

As far as using E10 with a stock carb, I would be careful. I have seen many Dellorto's with loose lead plugs in the carb bodies. I suspect this is caused by water in the fuel settling to the bottom of the bowls. A local guy just had the main plug at the bottom of his 30pict fall out (no fire amazingly) and I suspect the same cause.

[Piledriver]

The plugs falling out has been a problem long predating ethanol blended fuel.

Oddly a small (~1%) of water in the fuel ~eliminates the corrosive effect of ethanol supposedly, and the ethanol keeps it in solution. Free water in straight gasoline is far, far worse for things.

As to the rust, keep your tank full.

[jhoefer]

E10 phase separates above 0.4% water. While keeping the tank full helps with the rust, you also need to actually use that entire tank of fuel. If you drive very little but just keep topping the tank up, the water concentration will eventually build up and you'll get phase separation anyway. The shelf life has always been the main problem for cars that don't get driven very much and/or have fuel tanks vented to atmosphere.

[raygreenwood]

E10 phase separates above 0.4% water. While keeping the tank full helps with the rust, you also need to actually use that entire tank of fuel. If you drive very little but just keep topping the tank up, the water concentration will eventually build up and you'll get phase separation anyway. The shelf life has always been the main problem for cars that don't get driven very much and/or have fuel tanks vented to atmosphere.

Spot on!

Oh and Piledriver.... I have found solutions and worked out a few of my own for the coupling of nylon line to components. I will post it in the next two mos or so when I get closer. Ray