2276cc fuel injection issue...

Fuel Supply & Ignition Systems

Moderator: Tom Notch

User avatar
Volky
Posts: 282
Joined: Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:39 pm
Location: A very hot Island with killer BUGS!!!

2276cc fuel injection issue...

Post by Volky » Mon Mar 02, 2015 6:12 am

Good day,

Yesterday a friend called me to check out his EFI system which is installed in a buggy. When I got there it was a Fueltech FT350. I told him I have MS-2 but I could "sneak a peek" at the fueltech system.

The car idles roughhhh, unstable rpm's. In the little time sent playing around with the fueltech (6hours) I noticed it isn't that hard to manage. I believe ms-2 is more complex due to all its features.

What I know about the engine:
-2276cc n/a engine
-Comp. Ratio is unknown by the owner
-cam FK-he told me but I forgot, I'll get back with that...
-big valve heads unknown, too.
-injectors: 850cc at 55psi
-crank trigger with 60-2 wheel for wasted spark.

The settings in the system seemed to be "ok" since any alteration up or down worsened the car so we left it how it was. I told him that those injectors are to big for a n/a engine. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Last night I got home and downloaded the FT350 manual. It states it has two injector banks but he is only using Bank A they fire all at the same time. At least that is what I understand. Why can't he use bank A and B?

Another thing, why the 60-2 wheel?

The tooth away from the gap is 11 when the system states it should be 15.

The car runs but to me it's not all there.

That's all for now. If I remember anything else I'll post it later on.

Thanks...
1970 VW Beetle with 2109cc turbo with MS-II v3.0, wasted spark with MSD coilpack, dual table, launch control and 3.88 tranny. All done by me...:) t03 running 48lb. Injectors, Intercooler, Water/Meth injection at 15psi.

User avatar
falcor
Posts: 185
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:44 am
Location: Sweden

Re: 2276cc fuel injection issue...

Post by falcor » Mon Mar 02, 2015 8:55 am

Yes those injectors sound way to big, 250-300 cc/min should be enough depending on what hp he plans on extracting from it.

User avatar
Piledriver
Moderator
Posts: 21720
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 3:01 am
Location: Van Alstyne, Texas

Re: 2276cc fuel injection issue...

Post by Piledriver » Mon Mar 02, 2015 2:07 pm

Max size depends largely on the injectors--- there are <2L turbos idling great on 1000cc injectors.
850s are a ~reasonable size if he wants to run E85.

Nothing wrong with a 60-2 wheel, very common.

Agreed both banks should be used, but before I would put any more effort into it, check out the mechanical basics
no efi system has the capability to make a whipped motor run well.
I, for one, regularly embrace our new robot overlords, as I am the guy fixing the robots...

User avatar
volksbugly
Posts: 613
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2010 7:09 am

Re: 2276cc fuel injection issue...

Post by volksbugly » Mon Mar 02, 2015 2:40 pm

Injectors depend on the brand and what resolution they can run at. For example I have Injector Dynamics 725cc injectors that I ran fine on a stock 1600cc. Are you able to verify all the simple things like throtte position, ect...? What kind of logging capabilities does it have?

jhoefer
Posts: 194
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2011 4:30 pm

Re: 2276cc fuel injection issue...

Post by jhoefer » Mon Mar 02, 2015 2:41 pm

I think those injectors are probably at least twice as big as they should be. They'd only be running ~30% duty cycle at max power. At idle I'm sure they're deep into single digits and that's a bad place to try and run injectors. Injectors don't behave well at very low duty cycles. Fuel pressure is almost 30% higher than standard too. That's just pushing the idle duty cycle even lower.

A big, lumpy cam is going to further reduce idle smoothness.

Changing to semi-sequential from batch with the additional bank may help since each fuel pulse would need to be roughly doubled in length. That may help get the injectors out of their non-linear low pulsewidth region. I'd certainly try it first before buying a new set of injectors.

miniman82
Posts: 3944
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 5:36 pm
Location: Norfolk, VA

Re: 2276cc fuel injection issue...

Post by miniman82 » Mon Mar 02, 2015 9:04 pm

Probably drowning in fuel with way too much cam. $10 says he put an FK-89 in it.
Image

User avatar
Volky
Posts: 282
Joined: Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:39 pm
Location: A very hot Island with killer BUGS!!!

Re: 2276cc fuel injection issue...

Post by Volky » Mon Mar 02, 2015 9:50 pm

Hi to all,
mini: I just talked to the owner, he says it's a fk10.

pile, I did not mention, the engine is brand new even the block.
1970 VW Beetle with 2109cc turbo with MS-II v3.0, wasted spark with MSD coilpack, dual table, launch control and 3.88 tranny. All done by me...:) t03 running 48lb. Injectors, Intercooler, Water/Meth injection at 15psi.

User avatar
Lo Cash John
Posts: 924
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 2:01 am

Re: 2276cc fuel injection issue...

Post by Lo Cash John » Mon Mar 02, 2015 10:58 pm

I'm no guru, just trying to help out. Has this combo ever run properly or is this a new build that's never been tuned?

User avatar
Volky
Posts: 282
Joined: Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:39 pm
Location: A very hot Island with killer BUGS!!!

Re: 2276cc fuel injection issue...

Post by Volky » Tue Mar 03, 2015 4:42 am

Lo,
It's a new engine that never ran properly.
1970 VW Beetle with 2109cc turbo with MS-II v3.0, wasted spark with MSD coilpack, dual table, launch control and 3.88 tranny. All done by me...:) t03 running 48lb. Injectors, Intercooler, Water/Meth injection at 15psi.

User avatar
Piledriver
Moderator
Posts: 21720
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 3:01 am
Location: Van Alstyne, Texas

Re: 2276cc fuel injection issue...

Post by Piledriver » Tue Mar 03, 2015 1:19 pm

Drop the fuel pressure to ~42 psi, 30 if the injectors will work there.
Check the actual fuel pressure and look for funny readings in case pump is cavitating or such.
Check vacuum leaks, ideally injector flow balance, compression and leakdown, valve adjust etc.

If idle etc is very rich may have washed the ring seal out, compression/leakdown will tell the tale.

An engine with a lot of cam may want to idle at a higher RPM, sometimes 50-100 RPM makes a huge difference.
I, for one, regularly embrace our new robot overlords, as I am the guy fixing the robots...

User avatar
Volky
Posts: 282
Joined: Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:39 pm
Location: A very hot Island with killer BUGS!!!

Re: 2276cc fuel injection issue...

Post by Volky » Tue Mar 03, 2015 7:49 pm

Pile, I will tell him go try that. Thanks
1970 VW Beetle with 2109cc turbo with MS-II v3.0, wasted spark with MSD coilpack, dual table, launch control and 3.88 tranny. All done by me...:) t03 running 48lb. Injectors, Intercooler, Water/Meth injection at 15psi.

miniman82
Posts: 3944
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 5:36 pm
Location: Norfolk, VA

Re: 2276cc fuel injection issue...

Post by miniman82 » Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:45 pm

The combination of big cam and huge injectors is what's causing the problem, though with an FK-10 it may never idle as smooth as you want it to even if you fix the mixture. What's the wideband have to say about AFR's at or near idle?
Image

User avatar
Lo Cash John
Posts: 924
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 2:01 am

Re: 2276cc fuel injection issue...

Post by Lo Cash John » Tue Mar 03, 2015 11:16 pm

Where in PR are you?

User avatar
Volky
Posts: 282
Joined: Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:39 pm
Location: A very hot Island with killer BUGS!!!

Re: 2276cc fuel injection issue...

Post by Volky » Wed Mar 04, 2015 6:46 am

Mini, his wideband is in lamba. It was showing I believe 1.05 or even more. I could not richen it up on idle because it starts to stall.

I forgot to mention his timing on idle is set to 17* Topping 30*.if I lower the idle it gets worse. I was thinking of taking it to 20* Or is it too much?

I plan changing it to map to see the effects since I did not see an unstable signal.

I told him to make a data log and see if it could be seen onboard since he doesn't have the cable nor software.

Lastly, randomly the car pops at cruising speeds. I think without a log we're blind.

If anyone can analyze the ecu, it's a ft-350. the instructions are at there site. I still have doubts on why the the ecu uses one bank for all the injectors used and fires them at once. That's what I understand.

In ms2 I use two banks in wasted spark config.
1970 VW Beetle with 2109cc turbo with MS-II v3.0, wasted spark with MSD coilpack, dual table, launch control and 3.88 tranny. All done by me...:) t03 running 48lb. Injectors, Intercooler, Water/Meth injection at 15psi.

User avatar
Piledriver
Moderator
Posts: 21720
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 3:01 am
Location: Van Alstyne, Texas

Re: 2276cc fuel injection issue...

Post by Piledriver » Wed Mar 04, 2015 12:04 pm

It looks like it has ~the EFI features of an ms1e +internal logging, and a fancy hand held lcd tuning unit for $1100.
Logging (or knock, or several other features) require adapters or additional boxes, but it looks like it has some onboard datalogging ability, need a canbus to usb adapter to get at it with a pc it seems.

How useful is the display? can it play back datalogs in any meaningful way?

The single bank use is not an issue, it doesn't appear to have semi-sequential capability even.

It may need to have idle cranked up to 1100+ rpm to get sorta stable.
I, for one, regularly embrace our new robot overlords, as I am the guy fixing the robots...

Post Reply