DTA s40 or Megasquirt ?

[carl4x4]

Hi, I've been speaking to Mario from the Dubshop in the US and Paul from Speedshop in the UK, both knowledgable and very helpful guys regarding their EFI kits. My Ghia is running a 1955cc engine with twin 40 IDF carbs at the moment and I'd like to convert to EFI using a ITB kit. Both kits seem to have very good feedback and the major difference seems to be the ECUs. The Dubshop uses Megasquirt, whereas the Speedshop uses a DTA S40.

I haven't any experience with either of these ECUs, I used to run an Emerald on my old Elise so I'm not a stranger to aftermarket ECUs, I have searched for feedback on DTA but it seems to be mixed depending on where you go to get the Rolling Road setup, with some people saying it took many hours and is hard work. But Google is full of opinions and not always helpful!

Can anyone help me on the pros & cons of the DTA vs Megasquirt for me please?

Thanks,

Carl.

[trbugman]

If your planning to dyno tune your setup the best person to talk to would be the dyno facility's in your area.

I have no experience with DTA ecu's but I will say that I love my MS3 that I bought from Mario.
Another month or two and I should be running fuel and get rid of this lean spot that that my 34pict3 has between 2 and 3k.

[Piledriver]

It probably comes down to where you are (local help, if you need it) and if you want to tune it, even a little.

Note that with absolutely no datalogging capability, the S40pro will have to be exclusively tuned on a dyno by someone who knows it very intimately.
That could get insanely expensive.

Even an MS1 has an outstanding datalogging capability, at a fraction of the cost.
(I would suggest a MS2, usquirt (ms2-extra firmware) or MS3 though, far more powerful and easier to set up)

The main downside of the microsquirt is that it is what it is, sealed unit, not upgradeable to MS3.
OTOH it meets most people with 4 cylinders needs, and the ms2-extra firmware is very mature/comprehensive.

Datalogging capability is a must if you plan to tune it yourself to ~any extent.
Include the cost of registering TunerStudio in your calculations:
IMHO it is worth every penny, just in time saved/fuel.
(It is quite usable in "freeware" mode, but the additional features are well worth the $$$)

MS3 can datalog a slightly reduced dataset to a fast SDcard at ~400hz, in my experience.
That has proven handy on at least one occasion.

Paul has a very nice selection of his own design ITBs and is a regular here.
IIRC he also is testing a distributor based "wheel" setup that can run any MS unit off one sensor, even fully sequential if the hardware supports that. (I'm running a Traxxas truck steel spur gear in a 009 body myself,36-2 due to a touch too much welding current on the "missing" tooth fill )

If you are in the UK, you might do well to also contact jsmcortina on the msextra.com forums:
He is in Birmingham and is one of the primary developers of ms2-extra and MS3 firmware.
He sells/modifies/repairs Megasquirt ECUs...

I personally cannot imagine considering a stand alone EMS without datalogging, having to rely 100% on the talent and good will of my vendor/dyno tuner (even if it's Paul) .... I also cannot imagine allowing anyone else working on my vehicles.
YMMV, severely.

[carl4x4]

Thanks for the feedback guys, The kit I'm looking at from Mario has the Megasquirt ECU MS2 V3, so I guess from what you are saying Piledriver that has the datalogging and extra features you are talking about. I have a friend with an Ls2 in his Cobra who is always raving about Megasquirt and how good it is to be able to log everything that happens.

[Piledriver]

Datalogging is an essential capability unless you are going to rely 100% on your vendor and dyno tuning.
As noted before, an S60 could be a bargain vs the S40, simply due to that capability and reduced dyno time/cost.
(it seems that would cost a bit more than a MS3Pro would, which comes with registered TunerStudio)

If you have no desire to DIY, though, and live next door to your vendor, it comes down to cost and hardware capability.

[Paul H]

Not sure why you feel that data logging is essential to the tuning process apart from AFR and the S40 does that just fine both internally and to laptop. I would agree that if you are clueless then ask the people who are going to tune the engine and get the ECU they like-good luck finding someone who likes megasquirt

[Piledriver]

Interesting, so DTAs website is wrong on the s40-pro having no datalogging feature?
(did seem kinda hard to believe, but IIRC Wally upgraded to a S60 largely for that reason, you can log/tune far more than just AFR)

I'm pretty sure we could probably find a MS-proficient tuner if we knew about where the OP lived.
(I suspect there's at least one fellow in Birmingham that likes it, as he writes most of the code)

Most tuners hate MS for 2 reasons:
(aside from that huge% profit margin most stand-alones provide, if only to provide negotiation room)

1) Didn't sell it or install it, no profit.
Moreso, have to deal with DIY installer issues. I can see that, most MS issues are installer related.

2)The most common gripe seen by dyno operators is MS is not locked down/password protected to "protect" the tuners "intellectual property" ...see that all the time.(there has been an active thread about that on msextra for ages)
The tune you did can be stored/shared, easily, by design.

OTOH, the owner just paid for it, so it is a work for hire, and is therefore not the tuners "property" once the check clears.
I'm sure that's more of a problem for tuners working on Belly Button cars like Hondas, where one guy gets a tune and shares it with all his buddies running identical cars.(as well as those that aren't, but I digress)

TunerStudio can be all hotkey-driven, and can have multiple live tables open at once given enough screen real estate.
The currently active cells are highlighted... very easy/intuitive to use, so I personally cannot see that as an issue for the dyno operator, unless they simply don't want to use anything but what they know.. which is somewhat understandable.

[Paul H]

S40 has recorded lambda history -this is called datalogging ! and is all you need for basic road tuning

"On the cheap" DIY installer issues -correct !

DTA doesn't have password protection.

The DTA units are easily tuned using a pot box. An expert can tune a DTA in a very short time.

Pile an you tell me which standalones have a 2-300 % margin ?

[Piledriver]

Pile an you tell me which standalones have a 2-300 % margin ?

Depends if you are the manufacturer or just a reseller...
I would say that for the manufacturers, 200-300% is likely typical>conservative, esp if the boards are made in China..

Note I did eliminate that comment in an edit already, 60-100% (reseller) is more likely after I did the math.

Was based on "special discounts" offered by a certain ECU reseller when he smelled a possible sale to some folks.
Other components seemed much higher margin than ECUs.

Only being able to log AFR/RPM borders on useless for any diagnostics, unless you have a gimpy sensor.
(Which would be hard to diagnose with that as the only visible log item, if you could compare pw/map or TPS to afr using older logs it could be identified ~trivially)

I'll hit a few onramps and see if I can generate a log that isn't an hour long and post up a zipfile of the tune and log, Megalogviewer is a free DL and fully featured registered or not, so DL and play with the log and see how useful doing any analysis would be with only an AFR line. (MS3 logs)

The scatter plots are as useful as they look.

Or grab some logs and tunes off msextra forums in the meantime.

Paul-- I know you know what you are selling, and if the fellow just wants a turnkey/done setup he cannot mess with, or effectively log on track days or such, that's fine. I just want to help clarify what his options are.

[Paul H]

What exactly are you trying to diagnose ?

Tuning and diagnosing problems are two separate things and this thread was about tuning

What ECU's have a 60-100% markup ?

[Piledriver]

What exactly are you trying to diagnose ?

Tuning and diagnosing problems are two separate things and this thread was about tuning

What ECU's have a 60-100% markup ?

...But diagnostics are essential to living with a stand alone EMS, as you cannot take it to JoeBobs repair shop to have parts randomly swapped if something goes all pear shaped.
(I actually have a local place owned by a (very sharp//well to do) fellow with that name)

Markup? Based on "discounts" provided to "special" people I'd say most.
Given that basic auto parts stores get 40-100% that's not out of line at all.

Have you priced having a complex multilayer PCB made in China? Dirt cheap in reasonable runs, even USA made isn't bad from some places, I have a place locally that is great for prototype runs.

The MS ecus certainly have a healthy markup over production cost for B&G, but the resellers have ~zero headroom as there is so much online competition. Some manufacturers probably decree a minimum price, common in many industries.

[Paul H]

What exactly are you trying to diagnose ?

Tuning and diagnosing problems are two separate things and this thread was about tuning

What ECU's have a 60-100% markup ?

...But diagnostics are essential to living with a stand alone EMS, as you cannot take it to JoeBobs repair shop to have parts randomly swapped if something goes all pear shaped.
(I actually have a local place owned by a (very sharp//well to do) fellow with that name)

Markup? Based on "discounts" provided to "special" people I'd say most.
Given that basic auto parts stores get 40-100% that's not out of line at all.

Have you priced having a complex multilayer PCB made in China? Dirt cheap in reasonable runs, even USA made isn't bad from some places, I have a place locally that is great for prototype runs.

The MS ecus certainly have a healthy markup over production cost for B&G, but the resellers have ~zero headroom as there is so much online competition. Some manufacturers probably decree a minimum price, common in many industries.

You're smoke screening

Firstly you claimed that the S40 didn't have logging -BS
Then you claim massive markups for ECU vendors-BS
Then you start on about some far fetched reasons for needing datalogging to tune an engine-BS

If you want to diagnose a sensor failure either permanent or intermittent you just plug the laptop in and have a look at the Diagnostics page in the DTA software-get your facts straight or risk public execution by an expert

[Piledriver]

According to DTA the S40-Pro does not have datalogging.
DTA is the manufacturer. so I guess they don't consider a simple low rate AFR log ability to be called "datalogging" as they would be laughed at by everyone in the industry.

If they only consider on-board memory datalogging "datalogging" that is the fault of DTAs website.

I'm sure your dyno has all the required sensors on it to tune.
Does the owner damn little good if it hiccups later.

http://www.dtafast.co.uk/compare_ECUs.htm

I assure you I'm at no risk of execution, but I did not want to start a flamefest as I genuinely think you do great work.

I do feel you might consider getting more familiar with other competitive ECU systems as the ~$600? (have to guess as it's not listed anywhere, you apparently have to get a quote, and I won't waste their time) S40-pro is barely on par to a $220 MS1-extra/v3 mainboard set feature wise or a $380 (with harness) Microsquirt v3.
(The Ms2-extra and MS3 is far easier to set up/use than MS1 though, MS1/V3 board has more usable I/O, but is ~13 year old tech... that is easily upgradeable to MS3/MS3x)

Call BS all you want, the markup numbers are pretty standard in the industry, even if they are educated guesses.
Unless you can post some actual % for comparison, all I see is smoke and mirrors.

Remember--- I'm not selling anything. Never have. I don't even have a dog in the fight.

[Paul H]

The S40 logs afr and errors which is all you need and is in fact data logging as it is data and it is logged.
What exactly do you want to data log you didn't answer?
I'm well familiar with wading through reams of data looking for whatever but it gets tiresome pretty quick and only of real use to me on a turbo race car.
I have no interest in cheap home made ECU's I'm quite happy dealing in the $6-900
bracket for several reasons or even better still not dealing with any ecu's -lot of hassle for no pay

[Piledriver]

You ought to check out the factory built/sealed Microsquirt v3 then.
Automotive AMP connectors and ships with an 8` harness, with printed onto-the-wire labels every ~12".
(I'd suggest the similarly factory-built/sealed MS3-Pro but at ~$1K it's total overkill for most apps)

You really should also look at Megalogviewer, has some very powerful data visualization tools.
No need to read through reams of text.