Project: 1776cc MS II V. 3.0 build...

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MarioVelotta
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Re: Project: 1776cc MS II V. 3.0 build...

Post by MarioVelotta » Tue Aug 06, 2013 9:49 am

That isn't bad really. On the freeway I spend most of the time at 32-3500.

I would hold off until the rain comes.
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Volky
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Re: Project: 1776cc MS II V. 3.0 build...

Post by Volky » Fri Sep 06, 2013 5:43 am

Hi,
The car is still out of service :x This is the new 3.88 which I installed. Can't wait to use the EFI bug.
Image
1970 VW Beetle with 2109cc turbo with MS-II v3.0, wasted spark with MSD coilpack, dual table, launch control and 3.88 tranny. All done by me...:) t03 running 48lb. Injectors, Intercooler, Water/Meth injection at 15psi.

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Re: Project: 1776cc MS II V. 3.0 build...

Post by Volky » Fri Nov 22, 2013 5:20 pm

Good day,

Well I have been using the car on the weekend and it runs great although it's not fully tuned. To date it has almost 1,000 miles on it.

So, I showed a co-worker the car and when I started it up he stated that he heard a valve. He says it has a valve issue and to verify it with a vacuum gauge. I get home and signal is erratic, GREAT. He told me to readjust them the valves. So, I did and the same @#$T.

I am researching around the net for now but would like an opinion from you Guru's of the VW world.

I was trying to post a video I put in youtube but now I can't even find it. I'll try later.

As always, thank you very much.
1970 VW Beetle with 2109cc turbo with MS-II v3.0, wasted spark with MSD coilpack, dual table, launch control and 3.88 tranny. All done by me...:) t03 running 48lb. Injectors, Intercooler, Water/Meth injection at 15psi.

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Re: Project: 1776cc MS II V. 3.0 build...

Post by Piledriver » Fri Nov 22, 2013 6:47 pm

Unless you have a previous clean MAP log to compare to, DON'T PANIC.

Do a compression test etc. Work it.

Reading vacuum gauges can be like reading chicken bones, you can "see" ~anything you want.
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Re: Project: 1776cc MS II V. 3.0 build...

Post by Volky » Fri Nov 22, 2013 7:05 pm

Hi Piledriver,

I had a hunch you would be around.

I do not have a previous vacuum signal to compare to. I'll see if I can find my tester.

Thanks,
1970 VW Beetle with 2109cc turbo with MS-II v3.0, wasted spark with MSD coilpack, dual table, launch control and 3.88 tranny. All done by me...:) t03 running 48lb. Injectors, Intercooler, Water/Meth injection at 15psi.

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Re: Project: 1776cc MS II V. 3.0 build...

Post by Piledriver » Fri Nov 22, 2013 7:50 pm

Volky wrote:Hi Piledriver,

I had a hunch you would be around.

I do not have a previous vacuum signal to compare to. I'll see if I can find my tester.

Thanks,
It should be visible in your logs.
If nothing else, a MS makes for a ~killer datalogger.

Most setups can get 25 hz, if i get lucky I can clear 50hz over serial.
(enable "can_commands" in project config and set serial data to max rate, it reduces the data set)
ms3 with the right sdcard can log ~everything @ ~400hz with only a slightly reduced sample set.

It might help diags to set your lags to 100% for MAP to get a clean log of it.
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Re: Project: 1776cc MS II V. 3.0 build...

Post by Volky » Thu Feb 06, 2014 8:01 pm

Good day to all,

So, after a while of running the with my tune, I decided to take it to the Dyno which recently opened about 9 miles from my house and see the results.

Since I was there I told the guy to tune it afterwards.

My tune put out a mere 78hp. The tuner started making adjustments and on the last pull it made 88hp with 102tq.

This is what he came up on VE:
Image

Spark:
Image

Compared to mine, these are flat and concise in 3d mode but I believe its rich all way around. At cruise it hovers at 13.8, 14.4. When I had it at 16's mostly. Am I wrong? Since I paid for this I don't want to F' it up. I was thinking of doing another table on VEtable 3 (since I put the switch feature) and copy his values and lower what I believe is to high.

At WOT it makes power at 12.6 AFR.

I expected at least 90hp. It's all good since I don't have a WOW engine. (stock p&p heads, 110 engle and EFI). I was thinking before this Dyno run of buying those DRD heads L5 or something with 42 and 37 valves (can't remember now the correct size).

What do you think of those values?

A Cyl. head opinion for my engine?

Thanks to all.
1970 VW Beetle with 2109cc turbo with MS-II v3.0, wasted spark with MSD coilpack, dual table, launch control and 3.88 tranny. All done by me...:) t03 running 48lb. Injectors, Intercooler, Water/Meth injection at 15psi.

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Re: Project: 1776cc MS II V. 3.0 build...

Post by MarioVelotta » Thu Feb 06, 2014 8:20 pm

Did he just do WOT tuning? Can you post the before table as well? Or maybe just the MSQ pre and post.

Cruise AFR is fine at 16, WOT AFR of 12.6 is good as well.

The timing looks conservative to me. A little more may have gained that extra couple HP. You will find more HP in timing then fuel.
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Re: Project: 1776cc MS II V. 3.0 build...

Post by Volky » Thu Feb 06, 2014 8:28 pm

Hi Mario,

He went thru everything. When he put it at 30* it lost power. The guy is a great tuner as per friends of mine who know him. The cars he tunes are Evos and Sti's which as you know are watercooled.

He just said it runs better the way it is tuned now. I find my cly head gauge running a bit higher since the tune.

Mario, I'll try to send you the before and after msq tomorrow.

Take care.
1970 VW Beetle with 2109cc turbo with MS-II v3.0, wasted spark with MSD coilpack, dual table, launch control and 3.88 tranny. All done by me...:) t03 running 48lb. Injectors, Intercooler, Water/Meth injection at 15psi.

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Re: Project: 1776cc MS II V. 3.0 build...

Post by Piledriver » Fri Feb 07, 2014 1:01 am

He doesn't tune many ACVWs, or apparently MSextra.
Cruise near or slightly rich of stoich is a great way to cook your heads.
19:1 produces overcooling for me. (no lean miss until ~24:1 for me YMMV)

Assuming you have "incorporate AFR" set on... (on by default)
You do not tune AFR by jacking up the VE table.
Set the desired AFR in the AFR table.

The VE table is a CALIBRATION.
Once VE is set up properly you can set the AFR target wherever and it will deliver that AFR.
It won't change much unless you make significant changes to the engine.

Assuming you had the VE table set up in the cruse range etc, he should have corrected the VE table with a few pulls to hit the hard to reach spots, and done the rest of his work by varying the AFR in the AFR table.

Using VEAL in TS on a dyno he could probably have the VE table well sorted in <10 mintutes.

You should also cut your reqfuel in half and x2 your VE table numbers--at least.
MS3s actual max value in each ve table cell is 16384 (there is an option to limit it to 255)
You are leaving a LOT of resolution on the table.. (no pun intended)
(This is also IIRC true for MS2-extra 3.2ish)

Even on older code, try to scale your reqfuel so your peak VE table values read ~200 ish. Idle will thank you.
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Re: Project: 1776cc MS II V. 3.0 build...

Post by Chip Birks » Fri Feb 07, 2014 2:57 am

Whats up with the mega slow advance? All in by 6000?

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Re: Project: 1776cc MS II V. 3.0 build...

Post by Volky » Fri Feb 07, 2014 9:48 am

Pile,

The tuner did not touch the AFR table to be honest. It had the same numbers I left on it. I am going to call him up and try to settle something about this. If we can't settle I'll just go to another dyno and see what can be done.

Chip,
I'm with you, I got out of there about 10:30pm and did not review it well. I'm going to address this section to the tuner.

Thanks,
1970 VW Beetle with 2109cc turbo with MS-II v3.0, wasted spark with MSD coilpack, dual table, launch control and 3.88 tranny. All done by me...:) t03 running 48lb. Injectors, Intercooler, Water/Meth injection at 15psi.

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Re: Project: 1776cc MS II V. 3.0 build...

Post by Clonebug » Fri Feb 07, 2014 12:42 pm

Do a "save as" on that tune and then you can always go back to it if you plot something that goes bad.

I would think you could just turn on Veal and let it tune as you drive. You can adjust your AFR's and see how the engine reacts. Also adjust timing to see what happens.
Just do a lot of saves and name it something that describes the changes or else write something in the "notes" section so you can remember.
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Re: Project: 1776cc MS II V. 3.0 build...

Post by Chip Birks » Fri Feb 07, 2014 3:23 pm

As Mario stated, power will be found more by adjusting timing than fuel, assuming that your fueling is close to begin with. Since most of us use dynos that only tune at wide open throttle, that is really the only area that that really gets a solid tune. The tuners I know of will get a car to run good and powerful at WOT on a dyno, then actually tune the car on the street. I have never had my car professionally tuned, but in my couple times on a dyno I would get AFR close in the power areas with the timing conservative, then start throwing timing at it a little at a time till gains in power are no longer found.

After those areas are good, make sure to save your tune as Clonebug stated. You will then notice that your timing table isn't very smooth anymore, I like to manually smooth things out. I notice timing changes in the feel of the car more than AFR(unless it is really swinging), smoothing out the timing map makes the car drive much nicer.

After your timing has been smoothed, turn on VEAL and drive the car home, let it work its magic on the VE table to get your AFRs to match your targets again. This will allow you to preserve the power tune done by the tuner, but get your cruise tune back in check again.

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Re: Project: 1776cc MS II V. 3.0 build...

Post by Volky » Fri Feb 07, 2014 9:41 pm

Thanks to all. I will give it a try this weekend and post my findings.

To me my car was there except for the WOT area. Mario helped me a few times and it was running great. I'm going to start some new "save as" since I have like a million. :shock:
1970 VW Beetle with 2109cc turbo with MS-II v3.0, wasted spark with MSD coilpack, dual table, launch control and 3.88 tranny. All done by me...:) t03 running 48lb. Injectors, Intercooler, Water/Meth injection at 15psi.

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