MS-3 2110 Buildup

Fuel Supply & Ignition Systems

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Max Welton
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MS-3 2110 Buildup

Post by Max Welton » Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:34 pm

So I'm rebuilding my Karmann Ghia. Back when it was my daily-driver, it just had a 1600 Kadron engine. Worked just fine.

But I recently converted my type-3 to Megasquirt and it worked out so well, I figured I could apply what I learned to building the new engine for the KG.

http://www.maxwelton2k.net/squareback68/MST3/

The engine this time will be a standard 90.5-over-82 2110 built on a virgin as21 case a friend brought back from Pomona.

This will be my build thread, mainly concerned with the FI and Ignition control systems.

This is the subject, a 67 KG coupe:
Image

Max
Last edited by Max Welton on Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Max Welton
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Re: MS-3 2110 Buildup

Post by Max Welton » Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:10 pm

First the goals.

I want this engine to make good torque from 1-5k RPMs. My preferred driving technique is to shift-short and keep the revs low. I actually prefer an engine that pulls hard to 5k and no more. I will be making cam and valve train choices to encourage that behavior.

I could certainly do this with carbs and a distributor. But that would be boring. :lol:

What I plan is to control both fuel and ignition with MS. I would also like to get rid of the distributor, going either with a Coil On Plug (COP) or Coil Near Plug (CNP) and crank-trigger approach.

What I already have is as follows:

From the previous project I have the LC-1 WB system and TunerStudio all loaded up on my old laptop.

I have now purchased from an assembled MS-III w/pre-installed MS3X Expander Board ( http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/mega ... p-476.html ) ,
their complete wiring harness ( http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/1239 ... -p-43.html ) and MS Relay and power board ( http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/mega ... -p-32.html )

For an intake system, I have acquired the Throttle Bodies from an 1999 Honda Interceptor VFR800, alleged to be 37mm.

Image

Image

So this setup already has the TPS, FPR, injectors and the fuel rail. These are all things I had to buy or make for my squareback project. I also see what appears to be a set of valves for idle control.

Image

Max

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Re: MS-3 2110 Buildup

Post by Max Welton » Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:45 pm

Bore centers on these TBs is right at 92mm. I've read that is very close to the spacing on IDF manifolds, but I don't have any to measure.

The bore at the bottom is just over 36mm.

Max

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Re: MS-3 2110 Buildup

Post by Dale M. » Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:33 pm

IDF's are 90mm C to C ..... Simple adapter plate and fudge factor the 2 mm with the 37mm barrels should not be a problem....

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Re: MS-3 2110 Buildup

Post by Max Welton » Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:15 pm

Yep, sounds right.

Since it's a Ghia, I need to be careful about how tall things get. The KG engine room is wide, but short.

The TBs themselves are about 3" tall and I still need to think up some sort of air-filter arrangement.

Image

Another thing to consider with manifold selection is whether they will interfere with whatever I use for COPs.

I've been thinking about type-3 style IDF manifolds like these, but perhaps I should select some COPs first.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/ ... id=1194719

What is out there for CNPs that would still give me one coil per plug?

Max

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Re: MS-3 2110 Buildup

Post by supaninja » Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:08 pm

That 2mm can easily be sucked up by rubber spigot flanges. Looks like a awesome build!
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Re: MS-3 2110 Buildup

Post by Max Welton » Fri Feb 03, 2012 9:18 pm

That what I'm hoping. Thanks Nick.

I'm having some problems doping out what the ignition options are. DYI has this coil-pack that I could locate in front of the engine (out of sight), but it says it doesn't have a built in ignitor. If the coil-pack is basically four small coils, what is the ignitor?

http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/ign4 ... p-409.html

Do I need something like this to go with it?

http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/quad ... p-481.html

Max

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Re: MS-3 2110 Buildup

Post by supaninja » Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:42 pm

The IGN-1 will need one BIP373 per coil, if you go with the IGN4 you only need 2 BIPs. Ignitor is just another name for coil driver.
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Re: MS-3 2110 Buildup

Post by Max Welton » Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:17 am

So in a stock ignition, the points serve as the coil driver?

Max

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Re: MS-3 2110 Buildup

Post by supaninja » Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:40 am

nope- the condenser is more of the "coil driver" and the points would be trigger wheel/vr sensor.

The ignitor/coil driver is what charges the coil. The coil takes the high current from the coil driver and converts it to high voltage.

this is a interesting read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignition_system
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Re: MS-3 2110 Buildup

Post by blue77bay » Mon Feb 06, 2012 1:39 am

Max Welton wrote:That what I'm hoping. Thanks Nick.

I'm having some problems doping out what the ignition options are. DYI has this coil-pack that I could locate in front of the engine (out of sight), but it says it doesn't have a built in ignitor. If the coil-pack is basically four small coils, what is the ignitor?

http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/ign4 ... p-409.html

Do I need something like this to go with it?

http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/quad ... p-481.html

Max

Max have a look at these http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/ign1 ... p-394.html
built in ignitor and fired from 5v logic so no bip's and 1 per cylinder ~~less complications,, however there must be ,i am sure ,some that can be had at a pick n pull for peanuts and i am certain that Mario or somebody here has found a compact COP from a late model ? that clears our manifolds and has the req'd built in ignitor. Good luck i am doing something similar for a daily for my wife's 61 soon.

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Max Welton
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Re: MS-3 2110 Buildup

Post by Max Welton » Mon Feb 06, 2012 9:37 am

That's what I'm looking for.

Can someone point out a late model application I might find in a salvage yard?

Max

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Re: MS-3 2110 Buildup

Post by Dale M. » Mon Feb 06, 2012 10:45 am

Late Chrysler V-8. (Dodge Ram) ...

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Re: MS-3 2110 Buildup

Post by Passatman » Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:31 pm

Ls2 truck coils i understand are logic level coils they only need the 5v signal to the coil to fire the ignitor is unboard. I think the yukon denali carriers these coils.

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Re: MS-3 2110 Buildup

Post by Piledriver » Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:39 pm

LS2 coils are cake to work with, logic controlled, integrated drivers and self protecting to at least some extent.
Keeps the noise mostly out of the MS.

The std LS2 coils are very "hot" coils... Truck coils even moreso.
I, for one, regularly embrace our new robot overlords, as I am the guy fixing the robots...

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