T4 stock cooling--Crank trigger/CNP or COP using Megasquirt

[Piledriver]

Preamble to avoid suspense...

This works fine with native MS2-extra (and soon to test MS1-extra) wheel decoding and a modified stock distributor for sync.

No external trigger wheel required.
6/1 wheel setup, sequential CNP, currently MS2-extra sequential w/HD Twincam Delphi coil packs.
//edit--- LS2 coil packs now, much better

Read on for the build/install thread...
**************************************
Idea started in this interesting thread---
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic ... 3&t=131694

This is all Klattins fault. Really

The goal of this project is to see if I can get sequential CNP or COP running using the trigger wheel that is already present.
Also, the hall sensor or VR sensor + wiring is entirely out of harms way, in the engine compartment and FAR away from fan belts and exhaust systems, and is easily installed and adjusted.
The following SHOULD work on any T4 with MS1 or 2, stock cooling or upright converted, and would very likely work on a T1 if you drilled a hole in the case trans flange in the right place.

This came up as I was looking for a satisfactory trigger wheel/sensor setup for a stock T4 cooling setup.

All T4 flywheels have 6 holes that happen to line up with the AT flexplate bolt removal hole on the #3 side.
(T1 flywheels have them too, I guarantee it, but no hole in the trans flange there, but that could be easily cured...)

Tangos picture came out better than mine---


Megasquirt has a very powerful set of trigger wheel code that can decode a wide range of trigger wheels... Including 6 evenly spaced "teeth" and a cam sync trigger from a modified distributor. (for TDC#1) and allow for COP/sequential.

No, this cannot run EDIS, but this is not a problem these days, and I want spark cut rev limiting to work anyway.

The hole location radius vary depending on size of the flywheel (210/215/228) but all would be in range of a VR or hall sensor installed in a rotatable plug fit in the flexplate access hole. Easily secured w/setscrew or a number of other ways.

The holes are simply the backsides of the PP retaining bolt holes, and are relieved to ~12mm dia as an oil.crud outlet for the clutch face, at least on every FW I have.

So basically T4s effectively have a crank trigger wheel, with 6 evenly spaced "teeth"(holes), and an easy/safe engine compartment/topside mount location pioneered by Wally et al, (using a modified flywheel)--- But without the expense or hassle of machining anything other than the hall sensor/VR sensor mount.

I was concerned the PP holes may not be referenced to TDC in any consistent way (different FW would have different positions) , but It turns out that at least the OEM flywheels I have appear VERY consistent.

The set of flywheels I have stashed (3x210s, 2x228s, 2x215-914) have ~identical indexing of the crank index pin to the pressure plate bolt holes--- The 210mm & 228s are all the same, with about a 10 degree offset, and the 914 FWs have a ~zero offset, but are identical.
(add pictures here)

This will be "it" until my parts show up (MS harness and other bits I need to complete this)
I still need to find my Hall sensor or track down another VR sensor.
I'll turn a plug tomorrow.

Will be adding some pics as time permits.

[miniman82]

Is this a preemptive thread?

[Piledriver]

Is this a preemptive thread?

No, it's to torture myself into documenting this.

[tango]

Very interesting.

Quite a collection of flywheels btw..

Looking at my engine with 228mm flywheel:


Below is an original 914 flywheel. There are other holes which might confuse the signal? Turning over 228mm flywheel in my engine does not have the extra holes:


But.. I already fitted a 36 tooth wheel and used a piece of 3mm angle iron to mount a sensor to the back of the shroud. It was a standard size wheel 5mm thick which I had machined to 2.5mm with 37mm center to replace the spacer. Note the missing tooth is in the wrong place for EDIS in the pic.


I am also planning on sequential CNP, do you have any ideas for cam signal? I have an 009 which I was planning to lock and grind off 3 of the lobes and use the points with a pullup resistor for 1 pulse per cam rotation (possibly the best use of an 009 on a T4?). From reading the MSExtra manual the missing tooth the crank wheel gives accuracy so 009 slop should not matter. Non contact would ideally be better but I think the points would last [forever?] with no real current through them. I did consider a hall sensor mounted somehow in the 009 but I have not spotted anything yet.

I need to check that a 36-1 wheel with 009 with only the cyl 1 lobe can be set up so that the signals occur at the angles required, I am not too sure on that.

- Tango

[Piledriver]

You beat me to the pics

I have some small balance holes in the one I have installed, but it looks like I should be able to "miss" them with the sensor adjustment.
The other flywheels don't have the extra holes.

A pertronix or compufire is a hall sensor (and a coil driver), and should be reliable with no load, as would points, but points MAY need a debounce circuit.
You should be able to get any angle you need with a modded 009.

Looking at your spare flywheel... from the disc side... is there about a 10 degree right offset to one of the through holes referenced to a line out the center through the index pin?

[sideshow]

How about using the fuel pump push rod for the cam synch? Early type-4 all ready provide the boss and steel rod.

[Piledriver]

How about using the fuel pump push rod for the cam synch? Early type-4 all ready provide the boss and steel rod.

That would work, but not all early T4s have a fuel pump...
Bus blocks, yes.

41x/914 were EFI, at least in the US.

One other thing to consider going this route vs a missing tooth setup---
IIRC the cam sync signal becomes the reference signal, so you may lose some accuracy.
(this turned out to be a documentation bug//not to be true, the code only uses the sync so it knows which tooth on the main wheel is #1)

[klatin]

Hi Piledriver,

For a VR sensor for what you want to do, you might look here:

http://www.aitekinstruments.com/pdf/cat08_sensors.pdf

P/N 70085-8080-001

[Piledriver]

Thnks Klattin, that would work very nicely in many apps..

Just for the record, the T4 blocks access hole is 1.250" (whatever the metric equivalent is, thought it was odd to be an inch size)

[Piledriver]

Got the Jimstim assembled, having some headaches, the only procedure/diagrams I found are for a v2 board, but the actual board was a 1.4... so I had a full set of LEDs and the input power diode in backwards. (no power/LEDS)

The main power diode was definitely procedure related, the silkscreen was correct...the LEDs could have been a brainfade, but I'll have to look at it again when sane.. I doubt any damage done, but a PITA, 10 tiny LEDs and small pads... I wish I had a PACE kit at home.

Seems to work fine otherwise.

Looking for a cheap source of a nice second box to put the coil drivers (and possibly the injector drivers) in, with their own power feed etc.
Glens extra daughterboard and related wiring require a lot of room, and the separate driver box/PS and driver kill switch are probably a good idea anyway.

I have a nice old extruded 14.4 Supra modem case that might do...but its a tube, doesn't open for easy service.

I'm not getting a clean load of the Ms2-extra firmware.(any version) fails at the very end of the load....The std MS2 B&G code loads fine. will try to sort this tonight, possibly on another computer, or perhaps from MSDOS, must crash now. (work graveyard shift)

I may end up bringing it "up" MS1-extra w/std ignition, converting later, as I am a little pressed for time.

Note:MS1-extra can apparently do the 6/1 COP as well, we'll see how far I get this long weekend.

[Piledriver]

OK, I ended up hitting Autozone for the crank sensor (went with a a 99 Ford ranger/4 VR as they were $12) and picked up a GM open element MAT while there ($16) using a spare factory CHT for temp, IIRC that should work fine with a recal.
(Or I MIGHT use the EGT TC amp and connect the CHT TC in there>jumper to the coolant temp sensor in, should be possible)

Of course they didn't have any mating connectors, so I spent double that at NAPA and the GM dealer for connectors.
(Lack of planning on my part, I know the usual suspects all have them cheap, next time...)

Was getting frustrated with the Windows ms2-extra firmware loaders erroring out, "Error: Timed out reading response e=0xE3"

I could load the std MS2 B&G firmware w/no issues, had me looking for anything with serial ports, trying different cables, almost went to Frys to buy a USB adapter
My Gobook3 has a real serial port I have never had issues with (bought it largely for that reason, can also use it as a weapon ), so I was resisting the USB<> serial mess.

Finally found the needed "trick" buried in the .bat file for the loader, got MSExtra firmware to load (303u)
Trick was--- turn off MS, unplug the serial, turn the MS on, then plug in the serial just before loading.
This (and only this apparent known fix I couldn't find via Google) eliminated the firmware load errors.

Amusingly, I appears I can REload MS2-extra FW now with no issues.

Now I at least have the functionality I had under MS1extra, and can mod to go sequential

(pic of 99 Ford ranger VR in adapter block coming once I drill the required hole tomorrow, will post in this space).

The cvs versions of Megatunix also contain a native Unix MS firmware loader, as well as supporting the latest sequential code, so I'll give that a shot as soon as I debug it.

...It compiles, but crashes out, I need to try the Ubuntu binaries, usually that works OK, as long as I don't actually have to use Ubuntu--- Ubuntu and I do not get along, I have been using Linux since `94, I find Ubuntu very klunky and poorly integrated, and to have no decent system management tools other than package management, which is a wash vs urpmi.
(I use Mandriva)

[Passatman]

Pile anyone, just a quick question here. Can a 009 distributor with an optical trigger be use as the cam trigger in sequential mode with MS2 extra code.

[Piledriver]

Yes, just pop out 3 of the 4 magnets. (or tape off 3 of the slots/holes)

[Piledriver]

Update:
Have all the mods done to the board to go sequential, have everything built, but I elected to go with a MS III box rather than an external second box to make room for the 3 extra boards and wiring/connectors.

I'm waiting on the larger MS III case and misc parts from Glens Garage.

Will be adding another DB25 for all external I/O going to the Extra daughterboard and a cannon plug for the high current separate power/injector and ignition outs.
(and perhaps the high current outs from the -Extra board)

EGT TC will have its own TC connector on the case.

[drmiller101]

why sequential rather then batch?