FI Beginner: Dual 40IDF blow through to FI conversion

[grogthegreat]

I get what you are saying about the fuel pump not being up to the task. I have an E2000 fuel pump that I pulled out of a junk yard that I have been using. The specs say that it is rated for 35GPH at 90-100PSI. That should be enough since 42lb/hr injectors times 4 injectors divided by 6 pounds of fuel per gallon equals about 28 GPH with the injectors at 100% duty cycle. I don't know what an E2000 pump flows at only 45 or even 55 psi but it can't be less than the 35GPH at 90 to 100psi. Unless my pump is bad or my specs are wrong, I shouldn't have to worry about my pump. Not bad for $15!

I'm glad that I can seal in the MS. The rail doesn't really have an engine compartment so the outside of the box will stay cool but I don't know if the MS will dump more heat into the box than the box can dissipate. If other people have done it with no issues than I should be fine.

Thanks for letting me know that other people have just run a Tee fitting on the top of injectors. I was worried that this would cause some unseen issues. I would much rather deal with plumbing FI hose and the special FI clamps than trying to fabricate a fuel rail.

I will freely admit that I am very cheap but I buy new or put the money down when it makes sense. It is the reason I am springing for the MS2 instead of MS1. You won't see me pulling FI hose out of the junk yard to save some bucks. For something like a FPR or TPS however, I will buy used and I will buy cheap. These are very simple device that have been installed on hundreds of different makes and models. I do however have a healthy fear of the "fleabay knockoffs" that look shiny but fall apart. I'll most likely find a FPR from a Buick turbo regal or a turbo dodge for $10.

Thanks for the TPS link. You are right about the CB TPS not bolting right on as I just got a reply from CB. I don't have access to a lathe but I might be able to create something similar. What ever I come up with will have to be tough enough to handle offroading while easy enough to create with a drill, dremel, and a hammer! You would be surprised at how much can be done with very little tools.

Here are pics for your visual enjoyment. The 'car' is completely street legal but I will always have more fun drifting around dirt corners than I will killing a WRX at a stop light. BTW, this is my first car

[Devastator]

I'll most likely find a FPR from a Buick turbo regal or a turbo dodge for $10.

Are those RRFPR's?

I have an E2000 fuel pump that I pulled out of a junk yard that I have been using. The specs say that it is rated for 35GPH at 90-100PSI.

Didn't realize you already had a pump. That one should work fine.

It is the reason I am springing for the MS2 instead of MS1.

Great choice IMHO.

I don't have access to a lathe but I might be able to create something similar.

I also came across a few cable driven TPS sensors, but they were expensive. They are used for modern automatic transmissions that need a TPS signal to work. This way you can put a carb on the engine and still use the computer controlled trans. Maybe you could fab up something similar that would run off of your linkage? The TPS is only used in MS2 for Acceleration, (like an accelerator pump on a carb), and there are settings that will allow for MAP based accel as well. I've not seen anyone get rid of the TPS and run MAP based Accel only, but use of MAP based accel with Alpha-N can compensate a lot for a funky TPS signal.

I don't have access to a lathe but I might be able to create something similar. What ever I come up with will have to be tough enough to handle offroading while easy enough to create with a drill, dremel, and a hammer! You would be surprised at how much can be done with very little tools.

YIKES! It might be worth a few bucks to have something simple made, at a local machine shop, or by a community college student, that would work for you, before taking the hammer, dremel, and power drill to that throttle shaft.

this is my first car

Congratulations!

[grogthegreat]

I am not sure on the terminology but the stock FPR on these cars raises or lowers fuel pressure in a 1:1 ratio with manifold pressure. This seems to be what I want. I am trying to find one from a turbo car that had a similar flowing fuel pump as I think this is a good way to get close to 45psi. Since these are stock FPRs, they are dirt cheap.

I've had the pump for a couple on months for the turbo blow through setup. I bought a brand new CB boost referenced carb FPR that has kept the pressure down to 3 psi at the carbs. Thanks for the second opinion on the pump as I wasn't completely sure that it is good enough.

I am fairly certain I can fab up some sort of bracket for the TPS as I did for just about everything else on the car. It is just a slow painful process that I was hoping to avoid. I found that aircooled.net has a TPS and mounting setup designed for the weber IDF carbs but they want $130 for it. http://www.aircooled.net/new-bin/viewpr ... d2=LGU0031

The entire engine and turbo setup was done without silly things like a lathe, drill press, a vise, work bench, air tools, etc. I won't damage the nice webers!
This is going to sound sad but my drill first had its battery die so I was hooking it up to the car battery. Then the speed controller/trigger died so now I have two wires running straight from the drill motor which get clamped by jumper wires from the car battery. Need to stop the drill? Disconnect a wire! When the motor dies I will have to get a new drill!

A new question: Is a air temp sensor needed? Can I pull one of these cheap from a junk yard or are they cheap new? I just thought of this so I haven't done enough research yet.
Edit: Looks DIYautotune has a new one for just over $20. For something like this I would buy new rather than pull one out of junk yard that won't be accurate.
Questions: Does MS need this or is it just very nice to have? Does it matter where this gets installed as long as it is after the intercooler? Is the DIYautotune sensor a good value?

Thanks for all the help so far!

[Devastator]

I am not sure on the terminology but the stock FPR on these cars raises or lowers fuel pressure in a 1:1 ratio with manifold pressure.

RRFPR stands for rising rate fuel pressure regulator. This means the fuel pressure raises with the boost pressure at a 1:1 ratio, (usually). You can, (and should), test whichever unit you end up with with an air hose, air pressure regulator, and a fuel pressure gauge, before you ever drive it.

I bought a brand new CB boost referenced carb FPR that has kept the pressure down to 3 psi at the carbs.

I have two wires running straight from the drill motor which get clamped by jumper wires from the car battery. Need to stop the drill? Disconnect a wire! When the motor dies I will have to get a new drill!

Sell that old regulator and buy a new drill.

Is a air temp sensor needed?

Does MS need this or is it just very nice to have? Does it matter where this gets installed as long as it is after the intercooler? Is the DIYautotune sensor a good value?

I'm sure I'll get several hatemails for this comment, but I don't use the IAT on my MS2 for much of anything. I have one, and at $20 for a new one, why not? I have, however, flatlined all the variables for that sensor, so it has no effect on my engine at this time. The best mounting place for it is after the turbo. In your case, probably between the turbo and the "carbs". I misplaced mine between the air filter and the TB intake.

Thanks for all the help so far!

No problem.

Here's another link for you to look at:
http://www.autosportlabs.org/viewtopic. ... ad58b1b51b

[grogthegreat]

Thanks for the great idea on how to test the RRFPR. That is a much better idea than how I was going to test it.

I won't be able to sell the CB blow through FPR until after the EFI setup is done. I am rather big on having as much car "up time" as possible. Nothing will get done to car that will take it off of the road until everything is completely ready to be just bolted on. The car will be in a non running state for only one weekend at the very most. I will most likely be driving around on carbs for a bit with MS on the car but not hooked up, a disconnected TPS on the still working carbs etc. If I don't do this than things never get done as the project will keep getting bigger as more and more things (EDIS, NOS, etc) get added.

Thanks for you honest opinion on the IAT. I am mainly just curious to see how effective my intercooler is in its current position. I wanted to put some huge air scope on it but I found that there is almost air flow on top of the intercooler. Air hits my windshield and curves a good 1.5 feet above the intercooler. I might build the scoop anyways for looks and hide a fan inside of it!

Thanks for that second TPS mounting link. If I have to do some fabrication for this EFI swap than I am glad that it something relatively simple.

I ended up buying four 42LB low impedance injectors for $55. They came from a 93 turbo eclipse. I plan on ordering the injector bosses tonight.

A few new questions: I think it would be cool to have MS log fuel pressure while I am driving/boosting so I know that things are okay. Are there any cheap fuel pressure senders out there? I found one for just over $60 but that is too big of a price jump over a simple analog gauge to justify it for me.
Is there any part of this entire EFI conversion that I haven't mentioned/thought about? I want to make sureI'm not missing something obvious!

Thanks again!

[Devastator]

Thanks for the great idea on how to test the RRFPR. That is a much better idea than how I was going to test it.

No problem. This is how I tested mine.

The car will be in a non running state for only one weekend at the very most.

Good luck with that. Careful and gradual building is a good idea, but have a back up vehicle in case the rail's down for more than 48 hours.
Last year I trailered my sandrail 300 miles and never got it off the trailer. Turned out to be plugged fuel injector baskets, which I discovered in 15 minutes...once I was back home and broke.

If I have to do some fabrication for this EFI swap than I am glad that it something relatively simple.

I would be shocked if that's the only fabricating you'll have to do.

I ended up buying four 42LB low impedance injectors for $55. They came from a 93 turbo eclipse. I plan on ordering the injector bosses tonight.

They should work. There are injector bosses that allow attaching fuel lines to the top of them so you don't need a fuel rail. These bosses "encapsulate" the injector with a cap and some screws. There are also injector "clip", (through Summitt IIRC), that clip to the top of the injectors so you can attach fuel lines directly to them.

I think it would be cool to have MS log fuel pressure while I am driving/boosting so I know that things are okay. Are there any cheap fuel pressure senders out there? I found one for just over $60 but that is too big of a price jump over a simple analog gauge to justify it for me.

MS can be configured to log fuel pressure. I'm not good enough at writing code, however, to make it work, so I gave up on it, although It would be nice and would have saved me LOTS of headaches during my build. $60 isn't too bad IMHO. Most sensors for this sort of thing cost a LOT more than that. I know some MSEFI guys have used oil pressure senders with success to log fuel pressure.

Is there any part of this entire EFI conversion that I haven't mentioned/thought about? I want to make sureI'm not missing something obvious!

I may have missed it, but how are you planning on triggering MS? Are you going to use MS to control your timing advance?
Dev

[grogthegreat]

The rail may be my first car but it isn't my only ride. My primary means of transportation in my motorcycle. However I do use the rail as my grocery getter since my motorcycle doesn't have much cargo capacity.

As for fabrication, I might need to create some small brackets to hold things onto the car like the FPR or megasquirt box. Yes the injector bungs need to be welded on. I have a friend who has access to a tig welder but he says that he isn't very good with it. I might need to be bring it to a weld shop.

I am way ahead of you on the injector bosses that hold in the injector. I ordered four of them from the fleabay link I put in my first post. As I mentioned before, I will get some Tee fittings from ace hardware and screw them directly onto the top of the injector bosses with rubber FI hose to daisy chain them together.

Would I need to write code for the MS if the sender I got sent a 0 to 5volt signal? The $60 one I found does this.

As for ignition, I plan on keeping my current setup and using MS for fuel only. Once I get everything working I will probably at some point have the MS control ignition as well. I currently I have a normal distributor with a CB blaster coil and a MSD boost timing master for ignition retard under boost. I read that the MS can be hooked up to the coils negative side in order to get an RPM signal.

[Devastator]

I might need to be bring it to a weld shop.

Probably a good idea.

I am way ahead of you on the injector bosses that hold in the injector. I ordered four of them from the fleabay link I put in my first post.

Ah, I missed that.

Would I need to write code for the MS if the sender I got sent a 0 to 5volt signal? The $60 one I found does this.

You would have to alter the code to create a gauge, which doesn't seem too difficult, although I beat my head against the wall for a while making a boost gauge. There are those on the MSEFI forums that can send you the code to enter or you can have a go at doing it yourself. What sender did you find? Maybe I'll get one and add it to my sandrail, since it's all taken apart right now anyway. Already planning on adding a VR sensor and getting rid of the dizzy pickup.

Once I get everything working I will probably at some point have the MS control ignition as well.

I read that the MS can be hooked up to the coils negative side in order to get an RPM signal.

Reasonable plan, although I think you'll really like the way MS2 can handle the ignition timing for you too. I sure do. Are you using points still? It won't keep MS from working if you are. I'm just curious.
Dev

[grogthegreat]

Well the MS2 with the V3 board, the stim board, and the IAT sender has been ordered from DIYautotune. Hopefully parts start arriving soon!
I still need to pick up a FPR and a TPS.
My distributor is a bosch 205AA. It helped cure a just off idle stumble during acceleration over the 009 when I was NA.
I am surprised that you need to mod the code just to get a boost gauge. Since the sensor is built into the unit, you would think the ability to log it would be included. I'll have to look more into it. I am an IT guy but I don't know much about programming. Time for some more research!
I can't seem to find that fuel pressure sender I had found before. I'll keep looking and if I find it, I'll post it.

Devastator: Keep up the work on your rail. I'm keeping an eye on your "build thread".

Thanks yet again!

[Devastator]

Since the sensor is built into the unit, you would think the ability to log it would be included.

Megatune will datalog the MAP every time, but it is not set up as a gauge. That's where you have to add it in order to see it when you're driving.

Devastator: Keep up the work on your rail. I'm keeping an eye on your "build thread".

Thanks for looking. I'm going to take some more pictures of the parts I've made and post them. I've nearly finished machining all the parts I need and the trans is finally installed, complete with modified mounts, and straps. This weekend I hope to start fabbing up the trailing arms, (finally). Now, if only I had more than 1 day off a week.

[grogthegreat]

Since it has been a bit, I thought I would give a little update.

Two out of the four injector bosses have been welded on. They should be ready to go by the end of next week at the latest. Pics will be shared once they are done.
I have also finished soldering the stim board. I plan on doing the main MSv3.0 board tomorrow. I am used to replacing capacitors on some of the boards in my projector that have gotten old so the soldering on this megasquirt stuff comes quick and easy to me.

Normally I am 100% against increasing the scope of any project while in the middle of said project but I have the chance to get my turbo and exhaust powder coated for free while things are apart so I think I will jump at the chance. All I have to do is buy the power coat paint myself. Any suggestions on the best place to buy quality high temp powder coat?

[Devastator]

I've not heard of powdercoating a turbo exhaust, so I can't help much here, but mine is ceramic coated and I like it a lot.

[grogthegreat]

Well it has been a long time since I updated so be prepared for a long post. I was very busy with school and work but recently I've had plenty of time to work on the rail and I have made some good progress.
The intakes are now on the car with the injector bungs, injectors, fuel lines, and a fuel rail made from fitting from a local hydraulic store. I'll let the pics tell most of the story.

Here are the intakes after welding on the injector bungs. My friend did a great job at aiming the injectors straight at the back of the intake valve. The welds aren't very pretty but the are very beefy and strong.



I won't bore you with pics of soldering the megasquirt as you already know what that looks like. Instead take a look at my "fuel rails" made from parts bought at my local friendly hydraulic shop. Those are 3/8" hose barbs on the end. The Tee fittings are the center black pipe are all large enough not to offer any restriction to the fuel from one hose bar to the other. I really didn't want a pressure drop across the fuel rail because it would result in the injectors on one side of the car getting more pressure than the other.


Here is what it looks like from the side on a spare type4 head. Notice the injector placement compared to the intake valve. This is much better than the CB intakes that I have seen pics of on here.


Here is what it looks like on the rail. Sorry for the lame pic. The fuel hose I got at the same hydraulic place for $5 a foot. It is a high quality aeroquip brand hose rated at 300psi. Should be enough! Some things I cheap out on like my fleabay FPR but fuel hose for for a boosted fuel injected car just didn't seem to be one of those things.


I needed a safe place to put the megasquirt as the car has no body and gets driven in the mud, through the rain, and gets cleaned by blasting it with the garden hose. Where I go offroading, if you loose control of your drift in a turn and go off the road, you end up in swamp water. Normally not a big deal as you just pull the car out and keep going if you have carbs; but when this happened to my friend's subaru his ECU was located under his passenger floor which was under water. This destroyed/shorted the ecu which opened up all the injectors and filled his engine and air intake with fuel! Since his air intake never went under water he thought that the engine wasn't hydro locked and thus he destroyed his engine when he tried to start it.
I do not want this to happen to me. I want to be able to drive this car into a lake and be okay so I bought this:

These ammo boxes are air tight. I had to drill a whole for the wires which I will be sealing once all the wires are run.

Here is a quick look inside with about 1/3 of the wires hooked up. Not the best out there but it is coming out better than I expected. That bus bar I found at home depot and it has been a life saver in terms of wire management.



I still need to hook up the TPS and the FPR. The ammo box and the rest of the wiring will get done today. Almost all of the wires have already been run to the area where the ammo box is getting installed so it is just a matter of connecting the wires in the box to the wires running to the box.

[Devastator]

Looks great! I like the fuel rails. You're not going to use those hose clamps on the fuel rails are you?

[grogthegreat]

Looks great! I like the fuel rails. You're not going to use those hose clamps on the fuel rails are you?

I originally planning on these "fuel injection" hose clamps I heard about on here but when I was at the hydraulics shop I was told that 60psi (45psi base pressure plus boost) was nothing and that good regular hose clamps will work fine. My fleabay fuel pressure regulator is adjustable so I plan on cranking the pressure up to 80psi with the engine off, wiggling all the lines and looking for leaks. If I don't get a drop at 80psi than I will be happy. If I get the slightest leak than I will grab different clamps.