914 - 6 dry sump tank

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Matt Mariani
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Re: 914 - 6 dry sump tank

Post by Matt Mariani » Mon Feb 13, 2017 9:22 am

Thank you Piledriver, it's come a long way in 15 months..

Thanks also for the response.

So i may try and squeeze in the CB DS pump as you say to do. When in a 912, the pressure side would be seen from the rear on the passenger side.

Since my motor (when in use in the 914) was already set up with a windage tray and modded oil filter for relief oil to run up front into a decent size oil cooler(ran without issue for 5 years), I figure i could continue this practice.

But you think the addition of a CB750 DS tank would be taking it a step too far ?

If one were to leave the stock oil pump and run the relief oil through the big -12 (3/4") copper lines and then a CB750 DS tank, could this work without loading up the engine sump with way too much oil?

I will likely buy the CB DS pump but i'm curious about the above question regarding the engine sump overfilling if using the stock oil pump..
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Matt Mariani
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Re: 914 - 6 dry sump tank

Post by Matt Mariani » Mon Feb 13, 2017 9:51 am

I wanted to show pics of the oil passages at the filter (3/8") Was this modded for better flow or is this stock ?

This motor ran and idled really nice. It wasn't overly powerful but felt like it had about 120 HP.

Also, if anyone knows the best block off product for the stock oil cooler let me know where to go for that please.

The oil cooler passages seem a better choice as a bypass to a cooler, larger oil passages than the oil filter bypass.

Some pics:
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dragvw2180
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Re: 914 - 6 dry sump tank

Post by dragvw2180 » Mon Feb 13, 2017 12:39 pm

On my 1969 911 E the tank was in the R/H quarter panel and it drained back into the engine every night. I would start it and watch the oil level gauge until it filled back up from returning oil from the engine sump. I thought the oil return side is where the oil was filtered , that way you did not end up with any trash inside the tank ? I have thought about dry sumping my Turbo Bug , the tank I liked had an OBERG filter welded to the top so all the oil went through it before entering the tank . Oh and gravity will help fill the line to the suction/pressure side of the pump, remember almost all pumps are made to push fluid and not suck very far .

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Re: 914 - 6 dry sump tank

Post by Piledriver » Mon Feb 13, 2017 1:28 pm

The passages to/from the filter mount appear stock, you can drill them out a little bigger (I went 7/16") but its probably pointless if you don't go dry sump. I modded the pump so that port became the scavenge out, as there was no way to use the std location on the CB drypump with the 914 rear mounts, plus a straight shot flows better.

A cheap remote oil cooler adapter can be easily cross drilled so it becomes simply a loop, and a great place to return the pressure feed post filter/cooler etc. The factory pressure relief can still work fed to that if drilled as a loop.
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Matt Mariani
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Re: 914 - 6 dry sump tank

Post by Matt Mariani » Mon Feb 13, 2017 4:13 pm

Thanks dragvw2180, I have a 911E I need to get to restoring. Good data regarding gravity and pushing oil not sucking. Thanks I appreciate all the help here very much. I'd like to see more of your VW.

Thanks Piledriver,

Piledriver, when you wrote:
"I modded the pump so that port became the scavenge out, as there was no way to use the std location on the CB drysump pump with the 914 rear mounts, plus a straight shot flows better."

I'd like to do this as it's an intelligent solution (not buggering the mount)

re:"that port",

Is "that port" the lower port of the 2 Oil Filter Ports. In other words, does the lower port scavange? and the upper port pressurize.. Not that familiar but trying..

Also, I've been searching the web and cannot find an oil cooler adapter for the type 4 engine. Plenty for T1.

And again regarding the Oil Cooler Ports and potential pressure feed, which oil passage is pressure ? Upper or lower? If I used the pressure port in at the oil cooler for my post filter and cooler oil, what modification to the pressure relief would i need to make?

I'd guess both lower are scavenge and both upper are pressure..

Thanks again Piledriver, you're a wealth of good information.

dragvw2180
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Re: 914 - 6 dry sump tank

Post by dragvw2180 » Mon Feb 13, 2017 5:12 pm

Not a very good picture of my car , it is all torn down for repaint right now ,
Image

dragvw2180
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Re: 914 - 6 dry sump tank

Post by dragvw2180 » Mon Feb 13, 2017 5:14 pm

Image

Matt Mariani
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Re: 914 - 6 dry sump tank

Post by Matt Mariani » Mon Feb 13, 2017 5:52 pm

Man that looks fun.

How many HP is that (Type 4?) putting out?

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Re: 914 - 6 dry sump tank

Post by dragvw2180 » Mon Feb 13, 2017 5:58 pm

Type 1 , dynoed 400 + HP without the Nitros . I had a lot of help and parts from my friends Dave and Judy Kawell . This is a street car that I do drive on the street .

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Re: 914 - 6 dry sump tank

Post by Piledriver » Tue Feb 14, 2017 4:21 am

Piledriver, when you wrote:
"I modded the pump so that port became the scavenge out, as there was no way to use the std location on the CB drysump pump with the 914 rear mounts, plus a straight shot flows better."

I'd like to do this as it's an intelligent solution (not buggering the mount)

re:"that port",

Is "that port" the lower port of the 2 Oil Filter Ports. In other words, does the lower port scavange? and the upper port pressurize.. Not that familiar but trying..

Also, I've been searching the web and cannot find an oil cooler adapter for the type 4 engine. Plenty for T1.
Same remote cooler adapter, I've been running a T1 cooler for awhile now to clear my ac compressor clutch.
(DIY custom AC setup, vanagon fan housing)

Somewhere here I posted detailed pics of all the mods to the pump... It might have been in the drag forum, will go look.
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Re: 914 - 6 dry sump tank

Post by Piledriver » Tue Feb 14, 2017 4:42 am

This will be faster than trying to find the old thread...

Unless you have a CB pump handy, it won't be obvious how much metal i removed from the outside...
Close to an inch in places. What you see leaves plenty of meat for bigger fittings.

Ignore the bling cover, you want iron or steel. The cover with outlet is required, clears everything.
If you use a steel cover and button head/torx grade 8.8 bolts for the pump the pulley will clear fine.
(This just had to clear the stock fan housing, had to clearance some stiffening ribs a little on the backside but thats it)

The small brass plug visible is the original scavenge outlet, which has to make 2 90s internally to get there.
It aims right at the mount. Its too small anyway. 3 strikes...No Mas.
Clearanced.jpg
The next one shows a cut down aluminum NPT plug I made to plug off the pressure passage headed back into the block.
I then drilled the scavenge stage (inner) out so oil flows "as stock", which sends the scavenge oil out the original oil filter mount. (no pic of that as where it goes wasn't obvious in the pic, just imagine both stages go straight across for flow)
The purpose of thes mods was to increase the flow and make it work better in a T4 block.
inner-plug.jpg
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Matt Mariani
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Re: 914 - 6 dry sump tank

Post by Matt Mariani » Tue Feb 14, 2017 11:00 am

I remember reading the mods you've made and they sound smart.

Wouldn't a standard steel T1 oil pump cover without any outlet be better for your modification? Why the plugged scavange on the "bling" cover? I'm guessing this was an early picture and you changed this.

Also regarding the oil filter port used to scavange; is the scavange port in the T4 block the lower port ?

If the pressure port within the CB pump was plugged to not reurn into the block there asesigned, where do you have the oil going back in..the stock cooler pressure port? If yes, again, which port is the pressure ort upper or lower on the T4 case?

Thanks

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Re: 914 - 6 dry sump tank

Post by Piledriver » Tue Feb 14, 2017 1:54 pm

ancient pics just mockup stage

I have it going back in on a radiused 90 at one of plugs of the block, whats easiest for you will vary.
Modding the oil cooler mount for that purpose didn't occur to me until later.

The ported cover is needed to provide a pressure stage outlet and clear the motor mount.

Not looking at a block at the moment and has been ~a decade, but IIRC lower comes off pump upper goes to pressure relief and all points downstream. Required due to inner stage using existing large straight out oil port.
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Bruce.m
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Re: 914 - 6 dry sump tank

Post by Bruce.m » Tue Feb 14, 2017 2:18 pm

So inner stage sucks from stock pickup and pushes oil via standard gallery to oil filter mounting and exits there via a hose to the tank. Tank feed hose attaches to right side of outer stage and exits via typical type1 oil pump cover with thread for hose, and returned to the case (after filter) via the oil cooler ports (using a type1 oil cooler remote adapter).

Yes/ no?

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Re: 914 - 6 dry sump tank

Post by Piledriver » Tue Feb 14, 2017 2:28 pm

Bruce.m wrote:So inner stage sucks from stock pickup and pushes oil via standard gallery to oil filter mounting and exits there via a hose to the tank. Tank feed hose attaches to cylinder 3/4 side of outer stage and exits via typical type1 oil pump cover with thread for hose, and returned to the case (after filter) via the oil cooler ports (using a type1 oil cooler remote adapter).

Yes/ no?
Edited quote for clarity because 914 is mid engine.

Yes, thats how the modded pump is set up for T4 block.
the drilled external cooler adapter is how I would return the oil now, good place for a pressure sensor and turbo oil feed as well. Making a single outlet fitting block for the original filter location is easy: returning there is possible but more difficult to make and you run into hose routing vs exhaust issues, depending on the exhaust.
The two fittings will be very close together and hard to install even if you just use hose barbs/clamps.

I actually made one that had an adjustable pressure relief valve on it as well, swagelok part, was only ~$40, never tried it, yet.
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