Hello,
My mother-in-law has a '74.
It did sit outside for a few years until vandals broke the windshield ,
and passenger side glass.
Before that, it had been garage kept its entire life.
Now, after at least 15 years of sitting (mostly in a garage),
I would like to evaluate the car.
BIG QUESTION: Where do I start?
In my mind, the engine is the biggest question-is it frozen, or do
they stay pretty tight when not in use?
I think it would be best to try and 'turn it over' manually to see if there
is a problem with rust somewhere.
How to do this?
Wrench it over (how?), or put it in gear and roll it back and forth
(If the clutch hasn't frozen)?
After determinig this, I don't know what to look at as far as likely
fail-prone vacuum lines, electrical, etc.
An oil change is in order, of course.
The good news is that the body seems solid in most of the right places.
I had the busted windshield removed, (one of the idiot helpers 'folded'
a piece of the trim)-perforating rust at the bottom corners.
Rust on top of the front fenders to the front of those short seals.
I haven't seen the battery box and below; Frankly I didn't know how
to open the compartment...lol. I am most afraid of what I'll find there. The rear wheel right now does not look like it has settled in, as I've
read indicates structural failure of the suspension mounting point
below the box.
This was a nice car; I think she said her husband, the original
owner, replaced the heater box with stainless, and it has 7 of the
4-lug mahle(sic) rims, plus the targa, and a plexi top.
The interior is sweet. The front and rear trunks look surprisingly solid.
Something to work with, maybe even drive, but I am hobbled
by inexperience with this particular car, and concerns for the engine
and battery box area.
Any thoughts would be welcome-even the most basic, as to how to
access the engine compartment...lol!
Breaking it out of storage
-
plasmacutter94
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2009 3:54 am
Breaking it out of storage
Last edited by plasmacutter94 on Fri Jul 10, 2009 12:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
-
aircooledtechguy
- Posts: 1709
- Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2001 1:01 am
Hi, and welcome to STF forums!!
To access the engine compartment, open the drivers door and just above the bottom aft corner of the door frame, you will see a small round handle; pull it. The engine lid should pop right open.
If the motor is frozen, I would pull the plugs and squirt a god penetrating oil like Kroil or PB Blaster in each plug and let it soak for a few days. Repeat the soaking each day. Hand cranking a 914 motor is darned near impossible but the best way I've found is by using a wrench on the alternator bolt and pushing down on the fan belt so that it will not just spin and alt. I would try and wiggle the motor back and forth until the rust in the cylinders slowly gets broken free by the rings. Take your time and be gentle so that you don't break a ring.
Check out the area around the battery compartment and below (AKA-The hell-hole) and see how much rust is there. Raise the car to see if the rear suspension has been compromised by rust too. You can get repair panels for all these areas, but it depends on how much work and $$$ your willing to spend
One question; does the plexi top have the same shape as the stock top?? Only clear plexi?? If so, that sounds like a Saratoga top and is worth $$$!! Umm, I mean it's worthless and you should send it directly to me for proper disposal. . .
Seriously, If you have a photo of the top, post a copy here or send me a photo and I'll post it for you.
It sounds like a really nice find that could once again be on the road for all to enjoy.
To access the engine compartment, open the drivers door and just above the bottom aft corner of the door frame, you will see a small round handle; pull it. The engine lid should pop right open.
If the motor is frozen, I would pull the plugs and squirt a god penetrating oil like Kroil or PB Blaster in each plug and let it soak for a few days. Repeat the soaking each day. Hand cranking a 914 motor is darned near impossible but the best way I've found is by using a wrench on the alternator bolt and pushing down on the fan belt so that it will not just spin and alt. I would try and wiggle the motor back and forth until the rust in the cylinders slowly gets broken free by the rings. Take your time and be gentle so that you don't break a ring.
Check out the area around the battery compartment and below (AKA-The hell-hole) and see how much rust is there. Raise the car to see if the rear suspension has been compromised by rust too. You can get repair panels for all these areas, but it depends on how much work and $$$ your willing to spend
One question; does the plexi top have the same shape as the stock top?? Only clear plexi?? If so, that sounds like a Saratoga top and is worth $$$!! Umm, I mean it's worthless and you should send it directly to me for proper disposal. . .
Seriously, If you have a photo of the top, post a copy here or send me a photo and I'll post it for you. It sounds like a really nice find that could once again be on the road for all to enjoy.
-
Type 4 Unleashed
- Moderator
- Posts: 2202
- Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 10:43 pm
Re: Breaking it out of storage
Hi plasmacutter94 and Welcome to STFplasmacutter94 wrote:Hello,
My mother-in-law has a '74 that she allowed to be worked on by a family member years ago. He put $1000 into something on it, then allowed it to sit outside his shop for years until vandals broke the windshield , and passenger side glass. before that, it had been garage kept its entire life. Now, after at least 15 years of sitting (mostly in a garage), I would like to evaluate the car.
BIG QUESTION: Where do I start? In my mind, the engine is the biggest question-is it frozen, or do they stay pretty tight when not in use? I think it would be best to try and 'turn it over' manually to see if there is a problem with rust somewhere. How to do this? Wrench it over (how?), or put it in gear and roll it back and forth (If the clutch hasn't frozen)?
After determinig this, I don't know what to look at as far as likely fail-prone vacuum lines, electrical, etc. An oil change is in order, of course.
The good news is that the body seems solid in most of the right places. I had the busted windshield removed, (one of the idiot helpers 'folded' a piece of the trim)-perforating rust at the bottom corners. Rust on top of the front fenders to the front of those short seals. I haven't seen the battery box and below; Frankly I didn't know how to open the compartment...lol. I am most afraid of what I'll find there. The rear wheel right now does not look like it has settled in, as I've read indicates structural failure of the suspension mounting point below the box.
This was a nice car; I think she said her husband, the original owner, replaced the heater box with stainless, and it has 6 of the 4-lug mahle(sic) rims, plus the targa, and a plexi top. The interior is sweet. The front and rear trunks look surprisingly solid. Something to work with, maybe even drive, but I am hobbled by inexperience with this particular car, and concerns for the engine and battery box area.
Any thoughts would be welcome-even the most basic, as to how to access the engine compartment...lol!
The release for the engine compartment lid is to the bottom left of the the drivers seat, which is just a cable with a pull nob, as you pull this nob reach around and hold your hand over the engine comparrtment lid, to keep it from bouncing up, over time if you don't keep it from bouncing when released, will tear up the hinges.
To turn the motor over, you can use a rachet & socket, if you have a socket big enough to fit the big nut on the alternator, just push down on the belt as you turn the alternator.
"DO NOT" put a screwdriver down thru the Timming Hole in the fan shroud and pry on the cooling fins of the fan to turn the motor over.
And we need lots of pictures of your car to properly evaluate it...
Richard
EMW
“Have you ever noticed how some people never
have the money to do it right, but can always
find the money to do it twice ?”
EMW
“Have you ever noticed how some people never
have the money to do it right, but can always
find the money to do it twice ?”
-
plasmacutter94
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2009 3:54 am
Great day today!
After about 20 minutes in the poorly lit garage, I came across a knob that wasn't on both sides-but it was frozen. I sprayed some penetrating oil on the mechanism and using both hands, I jiggled it repeatedly on and off for 10-20 minutes, then tapped it back down, then jiggled it back out, then back down, then...click! Open sesame.
I studied what I found to orient myself to the basic components you find in all cars. Realized this dude had AC! cool.
I spent some time time-had to replace a flat-the spare had never been on the road, though I don't think it is a factory spare. BTW, what is the tube connected to the spare, an inflation sensor?
I managed to work the car back in forth, with it in 3rd gear (the clutch seems to operate!) and it turned over without horrid screetching sounds. I did spray penetrating oil down the throats of the...carburetors? They look like carburetors to me. Anyway, one was frozen up, so some more penetrating oil, and careful force back and forth until it worked loose too. I am not so confident about the brakes. They function, in that when you put lots of force on the pedal, it goes down, and thw wheels won't spin freely. But you have to pull it back up, and then work the wheels loose to get them to spin more. Drivers side wheels spin less freely than the passenger side. I did this repeatedly, hoping they would 'work free', but little if any improvement.
I pulled the 17 year old battery, and repplaced it after vacuuming the rust off the pan-what was left of it-still solid enough to hold a battery, but more swiss than cheese...lol.
I was able to extend the vacuum nozzle through some of the 'swiss', and vacuum the hell hole. I could see light at the bottom, but I knew there was some work to do there. I had already resorted toa floor jack on those handy 'cups' on the torsion bar (?-it was an i-beam profile connected to both sides, with a 'cup' below. looked solid. Anyway, the jack point on both sides are wasted, as is the exterior rocker, and at least some of the interior. I don't know how many layers to expect, but the doors align beautifully-right now.
It is sad really-the trunk and front compartment are beautifully clean, except for surface rust along edges, etc., (you'll see in the pics) . My deceased father-in-law bought it after leasing it, so this car has been in the family since it was new-always garage kept until about 15 years ago-long enough to knock a few thousand off the value, and add lots of work to getting it back on the road.
Speaking of which:
After installing a new battery, cleaning those contacts, replacing one cable end, following as many lines as possible. It turns over beautifully, but won't fire. Paul-the original owner-maintained it well, and the plug wires look good. I can see the fresh fuel I put into the empty tank spraying inside the throat of the carbs, and i did try starting fluid, too, at one point. It looks like the family member did replace many of the rubber-fuel lines, etc., so that looks good-no leaks that are obvious. But there is one black plastic vacuum line that comes up through the steel cover below the carb, and I found it just sitting there, by the hinge, pointing up, no obvious place to put it. It does have a short-3 inch sort of braided line that extends off the plastic line, but, who knows? And one black wire that comes up through that cover, too, and ends in a wire clip end. There are two empty male tabs on the trans housing in the center of the car that look like logical places, but I don't know. factory radio works. no reception, though.
SO-big grin-what do you guys think? How should I approach this problem? I think I remember the family member saying it wouldn't start after putting that money into it, so it could be something that broke or was forgotten during the work-as I mentioned the vacuum line and stray black line-oh, and one line with an odd long square end on it-female connector, i think, but no obvious place to hook it up.
One last thing, after power was restored, I ran through the usual suspects-lights, signals, wipers, headlights. Wipers are an issue, fan moter sounded hoarse, only the left headlamp popped up. What do you think on the headlamp?
AND: I will do pics asap, including the plexi top.
Thanks for the warm welcome! And I am excited after today's work...more tomorrow!
After about 20 minutes in the poorly lit garage, I came across a knob that wasn't on both sides-but it was frozen. I sprayed some penetrating oil on the mechanism and using both hands, I jiggled it repeatedly on and off for 10-20 minutes, then tapped it back down, then jiggled it back out, then back down, then...click! Open sesame.
I studied what I found to orient myself to the basic components you find in all cars. Realized this dude had AC! cool.
I spent some time time-had to replace a flat-the spare had never been on the road, though I don't think it is a factory spare. BTW, what is the tube connected to the spare, an inflation sensor?
I managed to work the car back in forth, with it in 3rd gear (the clutch seems to operate!) and it turned over without horrid screetching sounds. I did spray penetrating oil down the throats of the...carburetors? They look like carburetors to me. Anyway, one was frozen up, so some more penetrating oil, and careful force back and forth until it worked loose too. I am not so confident about the brakes. They function, in that when you put lots of force on the pedal, it goes down, and thw wheels won't spin freely. But you have to pull it back up, and then work the wheels loose to get them to spin more. Drivers side wheels spin less freely than the passenger side. I did this repeatedly, hoping they would 'work free', but little if any improvement.
I pulled the 17 year old battery, and repplaced it after vacuuming the rust off the pan-what was left of it-still solid enough to hold a battery, but more swiss than cheese...lol.
I was able to extend the vacuum nozzle through some of the 'swiss', and vacuum the hell hole. I could see light at the bottom, but I knew there was some work to do there. I had already resorted toa floor jack on those handy 'cups' on the torsion bar (?-it was an i-beam profile connected to both sides, with a 'cup' below. looked solid. Anyway, the jack point on both sides are wasted, as is the exterior rocker, and at least some of the interior. I don't know how many layers to expect, but the doors align beautifully-right now.
It is sad really-the trunk and front compartment are beautifully clean, except for surface rust along edges, etc., (you'll see in the pics) . My deceased father-in-law bought it after leasing it, so this car has been in the family since it was new-always garage kept until about 15 years ago-long enough to knock a few thousand off the value, and add lots of work to getting it back on the road.
Speaking of which:
After installing a new battery, cleaning those contacts, replacing one cable end, following as many lines as possible. It turns over beautifully, but won't fire. Paul-the original owner-maintained it well, and the plug wires look good. I can see the fresh fuel I put into the empty tank spraying inside the throat of the carbs, and i did try starting fluid, too, at one point. It looks like the family member did replace many of the rubber-fuel lines, etc., so that looks good-no leaks that are obvious. But there is one black plastic vacuum line that comes up through the steel cover below the carb, and I found it just sitting there, by the hinge, pointing up, no obvious place to put it. It does have a short-3 inch sort of braided line that extends off the plastic line, but, who knows? And one black wire that comes up through that cover, too, and ends in a wire clip end. There are two empty male tabs on the trans housing in the center of the car that look like logical places, but I don't know. factory radio works. no reception, though.
SO-big grin-what do you guys think? How should I approach this problem? I think I remember the family member saying it wouldn't start after putting that money into it, so it could be something that broke or was forgotten during the work-as I mentioned the vacuum line and stray black line-oh, and one line with an odd long square end on it-female connector, i think, but no obvious place to hook it up.
One last thing, after power was restored, I ran through the usual suspects-lights, signals, wipers, headlights. Wipers are an issue, fan moter sounded hoarse, only the left headlamp popped up. What do you think on the headlamp?
AND: I will do pics asap, including the plexi top.
Thanks for the warm welcome! And I am excited after today's work...more tomorrow!
-
Type 4 Unleashed
- Moderator
- Posts: 2202
- Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 10:43 pm
If you would of traced the line that was on the valve stem, you would found it went to the bottle passenger side behind the gas tank, and the air pressure from the spare tire pressurizes it for the windshield washer.
One of the first things you should do is pull the gas tank sender, and check the tank for rust. Depending if there is rust or not, will determine if you should replace the tank ? Even if you don't have to replace it, you still need to remove it to replace the fuel lines from the tank to the tunnel fuel lines, they are a leak waiting to happen.
As for starting it I would wait till you've check out the tank. But the starting issue, is their power to the coil ? There are 2 wires from the loom that go to the coil the larger of the 2 is the hot wire that goes to the + side of the coil the smaller is for the tach that goes to the - side. There is a 3rd wire that comes out of the loom before the end with the 2 coil wires and that goes to the idiot light sender below the dist, their may or may not be a 4th wire that is brown, which was a ground wire for the fuel injection.
Check the cyl compression. That will give you an idea of the condition of the motor.
One of the first things you should do is pull the gas tank sender, and check the tank for rust. Depending if there is rust or not, will determine if you should replace the tank ? Even if you don't have to replace it, you still need to remove it to replace the fuel lines from the tank to the tunnel fuel lines, they are a leak waiting to happen.
As for starting it I would wait till you've check out the tank. But the starting issue, is their power to the coil ? There are 2 wires from the loom that go to the coil the larger of the 2 is the hot wire that goes to the + side of the coil the smaller is for the tach that goes to the - side. There is a 3rd wire that comes out of the loom before the end with the 2 coil wires and that goes to the idiot light sender below the dist, their may or may not be a 4th wire that is brown, which was a ground wire for the fuel injection.
Check the cyl compression. That will give you an idea of the condition of the motor.
Richard
EMW
“Have you ever noticed how some people never
have the money to do it right, but can always
find the money to do it twice ?”
EMW
“Have you ever noticed how some people never
have the money to do it right, but can always
find the money to do it twice ?”
-
plasmacutter94
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2009 3:54 am
Good Morning, and thanks again; I will inspect the fuel tank and below for possible leaks, for sure. I put a gallon of fuel in yesterday, and so far no leaks, but I haven't been out today yet...
On the problem of no spark: I have 12 v on the two leads to the coil, if I am reading my meter correctly. I have been checking connections and trying to mentally map the wiring, which seems couldn't be simpler, just the issue of a couple deadend leads, as mentioned. Is it possible/likely the coil, condenser, points, etc. could have 'gone bad' in the intervening years? I pulled the cap, and the rotor and contacts in te cap had surface corrosion, nothing serious, but I picked up a replacement cap-they did not have a rotor at autozone. I don't think I've ever replaced a cap without a new rotor, or points without a new condenser (for convenience), yet Auto zone only had the cap, and the points, not the latter parts in either case.
I have some basic meter skills; any suggestions on a path to follow to find the 'broken link' in the ignition chain? Are there any 'black boxes' hidden away that tend to corrode or go bad, that I should be aware of?
Thanks for any input, it is great to have a place to talk about this car, which I have grown to appreciate already.
Plasmacutter94
On the problem of no spark: I have 12 v on the two leads to the coil, if I am reading my meter correctly. I have been checking connections and trying to mentally map the wiring, which seems couldn't be simpler, just the issue of a couple deadend leads, as mentioned. Is it possible/likely the coil, condenser, points, etc. could have 'gone bad' in the intervening years? I pulled the cap, and the rotor and contacts in te cap had surface corrosion, nothing serious, but I picked up a replacement cap-they did not have a rotor at autozone. I don't think I've ever replaced a cap without a new rotor, or points without a new condenser (for convenience), yet Auto zone only had the cap, and the points, not the latter parts in either case.
I have some basic meter skills; any suggestions on a path to follow to find the 'broken link' in the ignition chain? Are there any 'black boxes' hidden away that tend to corrode or go bad, that I should be aware of?
Thanks for any input, it is great to have a place to talk about this car, which I have grown to appreciate already.
Plasmacutter94
-
david58
- Moderator
- Posts: 14096
- Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2005 6:14 pm
Here are a couple of troubleshooting links that will help you.
Testing the Ignition System No Spark
Coil Test
Testing the Ignition System No Spark
Coil Test
Hot, humid air is less dense than cooler, drier air. This can allow a golf ball to fly through the air with greater ease, as there won't be as much resistance on the ball.
-
Piledriver
- Moderator
- Posts: 22520
- Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 12:01 am
Welcome to the STF!!!
Sounds like you have quite a project on your hands, but she sounds saveable.
Put up some pics and we'll be able to help more.
The gas tank is almost certainly full of crud, you would be well off yanking it and sending her off to be cleaned and coated before you start banging your head on why the fuel keeps stopping up...
A lot of radiator repair shops offer this service.
After sitting, the points tend to oxidize (even in the box): I'd clean them first.
Then change the oil/filter before you crank it any more.
(Modern oils are a serious issue: Search a bit here)
I still use Rotella-T 5W40, but am looking for a local SWEPCO distributor.
Plan on yanking the engine sooner or later, the oil seals get hard and need replaced eventually.
Sounds like you have quite a project on your hands, but she sounds saveable.
Put up some pics and we'll be able to help more.
The gas tank is almost certainly full of crud, you would be well off yanking it and sending her off to be cleaned and coated before you start banging your head on why the fuel keeps stopping up...
A lot of radiator repair shops offer this service.
After sitting, the points tend to oxidize (even in the box): I'd clean them first.
Then change the oil/filter before you crank it any more.
(Modern oils are a serious issue: Search a bit here)
I still use Rotella-T 5W40, but am looking for a local SWEPCO distributor.
Plan on yanking the engine sooner or later, the oil seals get hard and need replaced eventually.
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
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plasmacutter94
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2009 3:54 am
If I can get over there, I'll be following your suggestions. Thanks!
More info: If I haven't said, it is a 2.0 produced 05/74. It looks like it has the Delorne (sic) dual carbs. I read somewhere that carbs don't look good, but these look pretty neatly done. Any guesses on potential output of the motor? Close to stock, or a little less with the carbs (vs FI)?
Is there a location on this site with good engine compartment pics?
Tank will come out todaybtw-when I returned the other day, there was a small stain below that area. You are psychic!
lol
Patrick
More info: If I haven't said, it is a 2.0 produced 05/74. It looks like it has the Delorne (sic) dual carbs. I read somewhere that carbs don't look good, but these look pretty neatly done. Any guesses on potential output of the motor? Close to stock, or a little less with the carbs (vs FI)?
Is there a location on this site with good engine compartment pics?
Tank will come out todaybtw-when I returned the other day, there was a small stain below that area. You are psychic!
lolPatrick
-
plasmacutter94
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2009 3:54 am
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Piledriver
- Moderator
- Posts: 22520
- Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 12:01 am
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plasmacutter94
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2009 3:54 am
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Piledriver
- Moderator
- Posts: 22520
- Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 12:01 am
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aircooledtechguy
- Posts: 1709
- Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2001 1:01 am
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plasmacutter94
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2009 3:54 am
I picked up the plexi top-no markings to indicate, but it looks like a Saratoga.
It was acquired back in the '70's when one of his friends flipped his 914, and suddenly had no use for a second top.
I also have more images of the carbs.
I just realized the castings look universal, and were machined for left or right mounting, I think.
They look identical inboard, and I only have a poor image of the drivers side outboard face.
They don't look like the current DellOrto offerings, it occured to me that maybe just the air cleaners were DellOrto...lol.
And he is not around to ask...
It was acquired back in the '70's when one of his friends flipped his 914, and suddenly had no use for a second top.
I also have more images of the carbs.
I just realized the castings look universal, and were machined for left or right mounting, I think.
They look identical inboard, and I only have a poor image of the drivers side outboard face.
They don't look like the current DellOrto offerings, it occured to me that maybe just the air cleaners were DellOrto...lol.
And he is not around to ask...
