EZ30 in a Bug?

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GS guy
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EZ30 in a Bug?

Post by GS guy » Wed Feb 01, 2017 7:45 pm

As the Subject states - has anyone managed to shoe-horn the EZ30 in a Bug? Is it even possible (without hacking out the whole rear of the bodywork)?
I've seen what's needed for the 4-cam EJs, some serious trimming around the rear even with the flipped rear trans mount. Can the trans be shifted even further forward to facilitate the 6 similar to a Manxter?

Got a crazy idea about a German-look Beetle, 17" Fuchs under flared fenders, 5-speed and Mendeola suspension tweaks...... (I said it was Crazy!!! :shock: )

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Re: EZ30 in a Bug?

Post by Piledriver » Wed Feb 01, 2017 9:33 pm

I'm pretty sure it would ~simply fit in a T3 or anything originally T4 powered... I know they fit in a Vanagon.
(I include the T3 as a T4 fits as well as or perhaps better than the original motor)

A Ghia might be reasonably close without too much carving, at least fit under the hood.

On a bug, previous pics I have seen of similar conversions look like coil overs and cut a big hunk out of the center of the torsion to allow room, similar to installing a 915 or G60, or Subaru trans for that matter.
Also the rear luggage area will need worked over a bit.

The /6s are SOHC IIRC so the side-to side thing is not as bad.
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Re: EZ30 in a Bug?

Post by GS guy » Thu Feb 02, 2017 3:05 pm

After a bit of digging I did see one possible solution - shortening the pan! A-la fiberglass buggy style. When you think about it this makes sense - the rear of the chassis stays intact, just moved forward a few inches. Custom longer trailing arms are used to re-establish the wheelbase. Unfortunately the thread died before completing the build, but this guy was stuffing an EG33 (and Porsche trans) back there - much longer than the EJ4 or EZ6. What wasn't shown was how things like: re-integration of the back of the body to chassis, rear shock mounting, trimming around the back of the body for timing cover clearance, and numerous other "details" that are really the difficult and probably most time consuming par of the build.
Jeff

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Re: EZ30 in a Bug?

Post by Piledriver » Fri Feb 03, 2017 3:16 am

If you are willing to go THAT far...
I have been jonesing to put a 928 rear suspension in the back...
Original idea was a min-engined road going TOW'D.
(full tube frame added on)

I was actually eyeballing these for my 914 as well.
(too long, I'm not willing to cut up car to fit, but shortening the arms is a make-it-bolt in possibility)
I have approximate dimensions somewhere.

Then you can go mid engine. Plenty of room.... Just needs a rear subframe for the lateral arms.
Would give one a REALLY good reason to "flip" the luggage tray sheetmetal. :twisted:

Not only for the engine clearance (which Porsche never actually used for unknown historical reasons), but for the Weissach axle geometry...
Plus, no need for the reverse ring and pinion.$$$$
928rearL-small.jpg
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56SemaRag
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Re: EZ30 in a Bug?

Post by 56SemaRag » Fri Feb 03, 2017 6:51 pm

The overall length of an EZ30 is only about 3/4" longer than an EJ. Width is practically identical.
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Re: EZ30 in a Bug?

Post by Piledriver » Sat Feb 04, 2017 1:08 am

56SemaRag wrote:The overall length of an EZ30 is only about 3/4" longer than an EJ. Width is practically identical.
That's good to know...
In that case it's a gimme.
If it has SOHC heads it should ~just fit without heroics.
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Re: EZ30 in a Bug?

Post by GS guy » Sat Feb 04, 2017 7:47 am

Only slightly longer, yes, but all that extra length and bulk in the wrong spot. Seeing how much of the rear bodywork has to be chopped just fitting a DOHC EJ, leaving just barely enough to not have any externally visible "holes" in the body around the engine bay, I'm thinking even more would be required to fit in the EZ "bullets" and cam chain cover.

Image

I wonder if the central tunnel area could be sectioned and moved forward, along with the pickle-fork engine support arms, while leaving the basic torsion tubes on either side intact? The effort would be to preserve the chassis SN in a stock-like location, but slightly shifted forward with the drivetrain? It would be great also to keep the trailing arm mounts in the stock location, removing the need for custom trailing arms. I can see how trying not to move those trailing arm mounts could be problematic.

The Mid-engine idea certainly crossed my mind Pile. That's a slippery slope for sure. At that point, one starts considering the V8 options...... :roll:
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Re: EZ30 in a Bug?

Post by 56SemaRag » Sat Feb 04, 2017 12:44 pm

I wouldn't bother in a bug. By the time you shove it forward and do all the rework might as well go mid engine and reap those benefits. I am going to attempt AWD with the 69' Vert ghia I have with an EZ30T. Initial looks are the VIN section will have to be altered to fit.
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Re: EZ30 in a Bug?

Post by GS guy » Sat Feb 04, 2017 3:11 pm

Well, there is at least one guy on Subarugears Facebook page doing it! Man, sure is a LOT of hardware hanging out back there - not sure how one would re-attache the rear portions of the bodywork. It mentions modifying the pan as I was thinking out loud about in my previous post. No pan pics though.

Mid engine does seem like a viable alternative. You'd have to "grow your own" suspension for it, or try adapting an existing set-up, and completely eliminate the SN plate area. At that point you're getting pretty close to just building a complete new chassis.....
Jeff

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Re: EZ30 in a Bug?

Post by jamesbissland » Sat Feb 11, 2017 4:04 am

i don't think it is the length or width you need to worry about, but the height..

fitting EJ's into beetles you need to chop the oil pan a few inches for ground clearance, but you can't do that with the EZ as it has a cast sump that is all incorporated as part of the front timing chain cover.. and the oil pump is down low below crank level too :(

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Re: EZ30 in a Bug?

Post by Piledriver » Sat Feb 11, 2017 2:00 pm

There's at least one EZ3.0 in a 914, and one our listers is doing a Ghia with one, documented here:
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic ... 9&t=141390

As to the oil pan, he says it is not as deep as the 4 banger pans and does not need cut down.
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic ... 0&start=31
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Re: EZ30 in a Bug?

Post by GS guy » Sat Feb 11, 2017 10:43 pm

Yes, it looks like in the thread Pile posted that the bottom of the oil pan on that killer Ghia is about even with the bottom of the frame horn mount - looking at the pic of that sweet exhaust system. Hard to tell exactly from that angle, but it looks pretty close.
I keep thinking about shifting the whole drivetrain forward, maybe 4" or so? Yes, you'd have to section out the middle of the torsion tube (and a bit of chassis between the frame horns) and fit coil-overs - but you're installing the Mendeola suspension anyway - right?? :D Some scallops fitted into the frame horns would take care of the CV clearance.
Seems like anything you can do to move the drivetrain (weight) forward is a good thing for general handling. Especially with the extra 75 lbs of the EZ6 over the EJ4.

I haven't been able to tell how the Subarugears set-up positions the transaxle output flanges relative to the VW hubs in plan view? I know the output shaft centers are closer to the bellhousing surface vs. the VW box.
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Re: EZ30 in a Bug?

Post by Piledriver » Sat Feb 11, 2017 10:54 pm

CVs are also lower from crank centerline, at least visually.

I still think a mid-engined setup could be about the same amount of work/fab as moving things 4" forward, depending on if you start from scratch or use something that exists like the 928 setup and make a subframe.

I even looked at doing it to my poor squareback :twisted: :lol:
Keeping things all turning the right way would also save a wad of cash on the R$P and make spare transmissions available and cheap, along with all the mid-engined goodness.

I keep thinking the Subarugears setup is silly expensive, then I price a fully beefed up (but still comparatively noodly) VW trans and a suby trans and reversed R&P looks dirt cheap again.

I was looking at a VW to subaru trans adapter so I could adopt a beefier trans (maybe even a 6 speed) into my 914, but the $1K for a Subarugears VW engine TO Suby trans adapter plate it's out to lunch, I more than suspect I could have one custom made for ~half that, as everybody that makes adapters has the dimensions to go the other way, the reverse should not double the cost.
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Re: EZ30 in a Bug?

Post by GS guy » Sun Feb 12, 2017 9:55 am

I agree a mid-engine set-up would be the ultimate for handling and out-n-out cool factor, but accomplishing it for less $$ and work than a rear-engine set-up I don't see.

For suspension, I think I'd go for using the Subaru front suspension hubs and uprights and modify/adopt them for rear suspension similar to how Factory Five does on their 818. Keep the drivetrain all Subaru - right out to the wheels. Then you could fit the Subaru brake/hub adapters for front brakes from the new Subarugears kit. Maybe even step up to the Cadillac CTSV Brembos!
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthre ... brake-swap

Or just go all-out with the Mendeola kit up front.

The elephant in the room is how to sever :shock: the backbone of the chassis - the tunnel - just behind the front seats and build a whole new rear-half of the chassis - And be able to rigidly tie it back into (what's left of) the front half? You loose the whole structure of the rear of the chassis. Seems like you'd have to "cage" it to regain the longitudinal strength? There's that pesky serial number portion too.....

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Re: EZ30 in a Bug?

Post by surfbeetle » Fri Feb 17, 2017 11:29 am

_______________
'67 Bug EJ20 Turbo
Build Thread

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