Which one? Ford 2.8L V6, Subaru EA/EJ or Rotary 12A/13B

[cook11]

Hey guys. This is my first post....I have been contemplating a swap for awhile now and its time to try and make a decision. I am considering three candidates for the swap:

1) Ford "cologne" 2.8L V6
-Have experience with them
-Offenhauser 4bbl intake with a Holley 390cfm carb.
-Plentiful in various Ford cars/trucks
-Parts are fairly inexpensive
-Sound good with a healthy cam and exhaust

2) Subaru
-Most are EFI but I would like to convert to carb(s)
-Resemble the aircooled when installed
-Relatively accessible in various cars.
-Parts are accessible.
-Sound good.

3) Rotary 12A/13B
-EFI or Carb
-Lightweight
-Good HP/LBS
-Minimal parts
-Hard to find a decent one where I am located.
-Maybe the easiest on the transaxle due to weight and small engine output torque. I am not 100% sure about that....

I am looking for an engine output of around 150-180hp N/A or a reliable 13-14sec 1/4 mile street car. I do not want to start going through transaxles on a regular basis so I am not a 100% sure what they can safely handle. I also want to retain the rear seat along with not butchering the rear of the car for the engine to fit. I also want to keep it carbureted too.

Anyways if anyone could help steer me in a direction I would greatly appreciate your thoughts and ideas!

Cheers!

[rrb6699]

I haven't verified this but a Porsche Carerra 231hp rear engine almost bolts into a beetle out of the crate.

[Ol'fogasaurus]

I also have a 2-8 Cologne engine tied to an 091 and I was putting it into a dune buggy. Great little engine, raced well in Europe so it has good heritage. Found in Pinto, Bobcat, MII. The Ranger engines are slightly different so I am not sure just what will interchange... like the FI. The truck engine, as I understand it will not rev like the earlier ones due to being reconfigured as a torquie truck engine. It is also found in some of the little sedans.

The negative is they are kind of heavy. In ways they look very similar to an FE block especially around the heads and intake. They were, at one time considered a very good swap into a bus.

The rotary is a powerful light engine that has a rep of being hard on transaxles. Once the seals problems were dealt with they were well thought of. I am not sure but they still might be being built. They still can be hard on transaxles.

Subies are very commonly used now days and there are a lot of parts available including swap parts. The Subie transaxle now has been modified to work in a toy also.

Personally, right now I would consider the Subie engine.

[cook11]

What would it take to get 150-180hp out of a 1.8L - 2.2L Subaru running N/A using a carb setup. I need to be educated on Subarus and what parts can be swapped between engine models. I am assuming a carb intake will need to be fabricated? Also anyone on the board used a water cooled VW in a swap? I saw a video of a 1.8L VW turbo rear mounted that was wicked fast....A 1.8L with side drafts would look cool "to me" and it would be still a VW powerplant.

[883]

The N/A 2.2 Subies come in around 140 stock. The 2.5 I think are 170 or so. Some guys are running 2.5 blocks with 2.2 heads.

You'll certainly loose some if you ditch the FI and put carbs on it. The stock FI is thoroughly proven on many swaps.

[Fiatdude]

ecotech

[Ol'fogasaurus]

ecotech

They seem to be a good product also. So many old and new choices that are all good; some just better or cheaper than others.

[cook11]

Yes I would like to keep the swap looking basic "old school" no EFI and wiring just a simple uncluttered setup. I have been watching a few video of watercooled VW 1.8 and 2.0L engines mounted in Bugs and they look like a good option keeping it VW powered. It would look nice having some Weber side drafts...If going the Ford 2.8L V6 route possibly down the road a draw through or blow through turbo carb setup similar to what was offered by Ak Miller and Spearco perhaps even incorporating a blow through setup from a early turbo V6 GM " I have a 4bbl turbo carb plenum from a V6 Regal would be a nice way to add some power and give it a kind of nostalgic look to it as well. The 2.8L just seemed to be a very reliable and not complicated. I never had any issues with that boat anchor when I had it in my TR7. Hmmmm........

Now for transaxles will a bus/vanagon transaxle be strong enough to handle the V6/Subaru or WCVW? Or will a Bug transaxle be sufficient with a stronger clutch?

Thanks guys!

[Ol'fogasaurus]

Some 2.8 Cologne pictures.







Since you are already familiar with them: some info just in case I have some you don't.

German Ford and English Ford each came out with a 60° V-6. Very similar but basically nothing is interchangeable. The British engine got the Cosworth heads which would be the ideal thing if you could find one or afford it. The German V6 was raced and did very well thank you.

I wouldn't spend time on the 2.6 version mainly because of the Siamesed exhaust port in the heads.

The adapter I have is by KEP. The quality is good, the starter I have is the old style they provided which comes in contact with the 091 case so some minor relief work was necessary but now they have what looks like a GM style hi-torque starter. The flywheel is out of a V-4. The clutch is a 9" unless things have changed.

Similar to the 2.8 V-6 Chevrolet had, the 2.8 Ford has/had head cracking problems... just not nearly as bad. If the heads are this old and have not cracked/are re-buildable then you should be OK. The hot thing was to use Pinto 4-cyl valves for oversized valves but the 2.9 has the same size valves but way lighter. I retained the stock 2bbl manifold and bought a 350 Holley but I think I need to get a 2bbl spacer still. I also will use a remote oil filter.

According to V-6 Performance (Buick, Ford and Chevy 90°/60° SA design is the publisher) the stock 2.8 exhaust manifolds flow fairly well but headers might be available (room and direction are the keys here).

I'm running a local cam grinder's reground cam shaft that is more of a RV style; e.g., high lift, short duration for more grunt power than RPMs.

Good luck with your search. I hope this helps. By-the-way, the cool custom Capri finned valve covers are out of sight dollar wise.

Lee

[cook11]

Lee,

Yes I am quite familiar with the cologne 2.8L V6. I also own the V6 performance book and due recall reading about the stock manifolds flowing well. I also recall reading somewhere that the 2.8L V6 equipped aerostars came with a factory header.....not sure if this is true since I have never seen a 2.8L V6 Aerostar in any car yards up here in Edmonton. I had a set of heads redone shaved/ported/polished and enlarged valves from a 2.3L Ford installed. Never installed the heads and I threw them into the sale of my TR7. I kept the Offenhauser 4bbl intake though....

Here are a couple of pictures I found of some clean Ford V6 Bugs.




I also read that you can get a Ford OHV 4.0L V6 crank modified thus increasing the displacement. I am not sure what type of connecting rods can be used. I have also seen in my internet sleuthing a Ford 2.9L with a carb adapter. Also if you look at a company called Morana V6 Racing http://www.moranav6racing.com/ he sells a carb adapter for the ford OHV 4.0L V6 along with carb adapters for the North American "Essex" 3.8L - 4.2L V6 too.

[Ol'fogasaurus]

I didn't know about the 2.9 Aerostar w/header but I think my '86 was either a 2.8 or 2.9. Been too long on that.

I think that the 4.0 (and I don't know for sure but it seems that I heard something about it) might be a different block or there are two different motors. Something about OHC or something like that. It was a passing comment I heard and it didn't stick with me until later.

The 2.3L valves were the hot thing but the weight issue was what we were after and yes I did clean my ports up a bit too but mostly getting rid of any flashing. Too easy to screw the air flow up on even a stock set of heads if you don't know what you are doing or have a flow bench. The machine shop cut and put in the rough larger valve seats in then called me to come down and pick the heads up. I spend a good day on them w/narry a nick on the seats; good luck does happen to those who are careful and don't rush things . When I was done they then finished up the seats and valves.

That little engine does look pretty good in there but on the bottom picture the silver/grey area looks a bit different than mine. Mine came out of a '79 Bobcat.

I've seen a couple rails with the 2.8 Chev or 2.8 Fords in them. Never saw them run but the 2.8 Chev had mass amounts of cooling issues and tried several different radiator setups including two radiators conjoined; one on each side of the rail. I never was much for side mounted radiators as getting the air flow into them just right was a task in itself. For some reason, even with all the problems he had, he was loathe to go to the traditional mount on his.

Lee

Edit: I went out and looked at mine and it is the same; I painted mine black with the rest of the block. I also have all the rest of the crap and corruption needed for a alt so it does look a bit different.

L

[cook11]

I found some pictures of the 2.8L Aerostar headers just scroll down and you will see them compared to the stock manifolds. I never knew that the Aerostar came with a 2.8L....maybe just in the States and not Canada.....
http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthread. ... -2-8-Build

Here's a Capri v6 powered Beetle
https://youtu.be/o9aDBrdzvfU
https://youtu.be/I8cQgfu6sM4

[oilyT]

Just stumbled on this thread. the yellow bug in the bottom photo and in the video's is mine.

[Ol'fogasaurus]

On the transaxles, I would look at KEP and some other places to see if a conversion kit is made to fit the stock VW transaxle. On top of that you would have to throw some money at it for gears ratio changes and a 4-spider diff of some sort. The bell-housing as I remember is part of the case not like the bus bell which bolts on as I remember.



The bus transaxle sit 3" or 4" higher than the bug transaxle because of the larger ring gear so the nose cone, where the shift rod attaches, comes out just above the rear tunnel meaning an access hole in the body (the picture is of an 091 sitting in a Type 1 pan. I was building a 3" body lift at the time so it should give you some idea of how high the nose cone would sit).

There are dropped shifter connectors for connecting the shift rod to the rod in the nose cone but they cause a lot of "monkey motion"/swinging from side to side action of the shift rod as the shifter rod in then nose cone rotates which can be hard on the nylon bushing just behind the shifter; I reall don't recommend using one but some people do use them.



You can also mount the shifter above the transaxle tunnel using a sand rail shifter box and make a straight passage back to the nose cone. Unsightly but the easiest, and probably the best way to tackle that.

3 rib, 5 rib, 091, 094 and so on are the bus transaxles. Some of the later bus transaxle have a different shifter setup which may or may not be a problem. Some of them might have 4-spiders but then I am not an expert of any sort on transaxles.

Again, the Subie and the Ecotec seem to be the hot choices currently but what's hot and what's not changes so fast (pun not intended).

Lee