71 bug - planned EJ20t swap - new member

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ryans88gt
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71 bug - planned EJ20t swap - new member

Post by ryans88gt » Tue Jan 06, 2015 10:24 am

Hello everyone, I am a new member, new to beetles, not new to cars or VWs.

I finished building a factory five roadster last year, and a 51 ford F-1 restomod pickup is just about finished. So I am looking for a new project.

I have owned 3 VWs in the past including my current 2015 GTi. I also owned an 8v 1985 GTi and a 16v 1993 GTi.

So I was looking for a new project and always interested in beetles.

Found this 71 beetle on ebay for a pretty decent price. Seems fairly rust free, San Diego car.

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ryans88gt
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Re: 71 bug - planned EJ20t swap - new member

Post by ryans88gt » Tue Jan 06, 2015 10:34 am

Plan is
1) get er shipped from San Diego (which is becoming a pain already)
2) pick up a EJ20 turbo as complete as possible
3) pull stock drivetrain and sell recently rebuild engine and trans
4) Use Kennedy adapter and new prostreet VW transaxle
5) Radiator up front in spare tire location
6) flip trans mount to move everything forward (~1"?)
7) Build a lower engine mount
8 ) I want to mount the turbo on the rear so that I don't have to cut the firewall, but I guess that bridge is a long way from crossing
9) use 1.5" exhaust pipe for coolant transfer
10) Electronics? Not sure what the best route for a JDM motor, seems like Outfront's computer deal might work best
11) disc brakes on the front
12) build an fuel injection sump and pump on the stock gas tank
13) Considering flipping the intake
14) new CVs and axles
15) Freshen up the interior, new seats, carpet, etc...

I am sure I am missing some things...

What are the obvious things I am forgetting or things I should look at?

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ttriebler
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Re: 71 bug - planned EJ20t swap - new member

Post by ttriebler » Wed Jan 07, 2015 8:15 am

Maybe point 4
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ryans88gt
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Re: 71 bug - planned EJ20t swap - new member

Post by ryans88gt » Wed Jan 07, 2015 10:48 am

Yeah, I know that one is questionable and I have read up on the subaru 5 speed adaptation and spent some time thinking about it. There are just a few issues I can't get over.

1) Cost - By the time I have a complete setup I could buy 3 prostreet VW transaxles.

2) Axle shafts - are these available off the shelf? Seems like from what I have read you have to build custom units, which is a big down side for me. That means it takes a lot more effort to replace broken parts

3) Swap complexity - new mounts, CV shafts, shifting linkage, clutch linkage, taking the transmission apart. I am comfortable doing all these things, but I have limited time to spend on my hobbies, so the KISS method often has to be followed

4) Strength - the subaru world will tell you that the 5 speed is barely adequate for 200 hp.

So taking all this into consideration, I am going to go the simple route for now and if I break it in a week I will feel dumb and people can tell me "I told you so".

However, I am very easy on manual transmissions, so I think it will last for awhile. Light clutch, no powershifts, no clutch drops. I have made a stock T5 last for years in a full weight 11 second mustang. Fingers crossed!

As a backup plan, if I get a JDM motor with a trans I will hang on to the trans.

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dlamyle
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Re: 71 bug - planned EJ20t swap - new member

Post by dlamyle » Wed Jan 07, 2015 1:35 pm

ryans88gt wrote:4) Strength - the subaru world will tell you that the 5 speed is barely adequate for 200 hp.
Holds my 300whp just fine. The ones in the "subaru world" that say this are the 19yr old knuckle heads who put in racing clutches then do 5k clutch drops in an all wheel drive car that weighs 50% more than ours.

Either way you go, it will be a fun adventure. I'm tuning in to see where you mount that turbo in case I ever do a stealth bug. My brother has a 69 I may be able to get my hands on...
Welcome to the forum!
1968 Karmann Ghia , 'JDM EJ205, 5spd Subarugears w/OBX LSD, Blouch 16g XTR, Killer B Headers, DW 750cc, Meth Inj, Cobb AP w/Mach V 22psi Dyno tune (332whp)
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=143547
https://www.youtube.com/user/dlamyle1/videos

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ryans88gt
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Re: 71 bug - planned EJ20t swap - new member

Post by ryans88gt » Wed Jan 07, 2015 2:10 pm

dlamyle wrote: Holds my 300whp just fine. The ones in the "subaru world" that say this are the 19yr old knuckle heads who put in racing clutches then do 5k clutch drops in an all wheel drive car that weighs 50% more than ours.
Yeah I totally agree. The lifetime of any trans has a lot to do with how you use/abuse it.
I have a T5z in my 400 hp factory five and it seems very happy despite folks breaking T5s with less than 300 hp.
I am a big proponent of less is more.

However, for ~ $4k for the complete trans swap...are there any better options? BC $4k buys a lot of pro street VW transaxles. And then my logic is what if you ever break a gear or have an issue with your subaru transmission and it takes out those $2k ring and pinion. A lot of very custom parts.

What other options for transmissions are out there?

Can you use a bus/van trans? Are those any better?

I guess one question I should ask myself is how am I going to use this bug when I am done. Answer is I currently have no idea. It will not be a daily driver, I have a 2015 GTi for that. It will not be a strip or autoX or road race car bc I have a factory five roadster for that. I am thinking I will most likely build the car and drive it a bit and then sell it. I mostly wanted to build one just to build one. Sounds crazy, but project builds are more of a hobby than driving. Normal street use I guess is the main target.

I do appreciate peoples thoughts on anything. I have some opinions formulated already, but I like hearing what other people think as well.

One update - She is now in transit from San Diego to her new home in Illinois. It is -15F here today. Any tips on getting er started when she gets here? Starting fluid? I am worried she wont start in the cold weather here to get her off the truck and into the garage.

Thanks and stay tuned! :D

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ttriebler
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Re: 71 bug - planned EJ20t swap - new member

Post by ttriebler » Thu Jan 08, 2015 12:27 am

It's not a lot of very custom parts if something goes wrong.
It's a custom ring and pinion which we have lots of stock of and are $1200 USD to replace.
Last time I looked, pro street transmissions weren't 5 speeds, they are 4 speeds and have your Subaru engine revving high in 4th or have a big gap between 3rd and 4th if you have a freeway flyer. Ya gotta compare apples with apples.

But yeah - you can get a few pro street transmissions for the price, for sure. Don't forget the price of your adaptor plate, custom flywheel and clutch, shortened sump and short headers wen you do your maths.

It's all good - good luck with it all - I'm sure it will hold up OK if you drive reasonably. Will be a blast :D
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jrobe
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Re: 71 bug - planned EJ20t swap - new member

Post by jrobe » Thu Jan 08, 2015 2:20 am

My bug project I was going to stick with the VW trans for a NA motor swap. Then I decided to do an EJ20T and after a lot of thought the Subaru trans seemed to be the cheapest option in the long run.

I contacted PPG gears, they make the expensive Subaru trans parts and asked them what else I should put in the trans when it is apart. He wouldn't sell me anything, he said to hurt that trans in a 1800lbs Bug, you could never get that traction, if you did you would flip over.

The AWD burnouts is what breaks the trans.

Remember if you are going the drive it hard you will break the pro street trans. After a few then you will wish you went with the Subaru!!

Check out my FB page on pics of my EJ20T harness.

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ttriebler
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Re: 71 bug - planned EJ20t swap - new member

Post by ttriebler » Thu Jan 08, 2015 3:58 am

I like that the PPG seller was honest and wouldn't sell you $3500 worth of straight cut gears because they are unnecessary in all but the most hardcore of sticky slick drag setups (maybe). We've got cars doing 11's using factory gears.

I always find it strange that the Subaru factory matched a 280hp 2.0 STi turbo motor with the 5 speed Subaru trans but the 'Subaru crowd' say they will only take 200hp. Silly Subaru selling millions of cars a year, what do they know? :D

Anyway - let's see some progress shots of your conversion.
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ryans88gt
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Re: 71 bug - planned EJ20t swap - new member

Post by ryans88gt » Thu Jan 08, 2015 9:44 pm

ttriebler wrote:I like that the PPG seller was honest and wouldn't sell you $3500 worth of straight cut gears because they are unnecessary in all but the most hardcore of sticky slick drag setups (maybe). We've got cars doing 11's using factory gears.

I always find it strange that the Subaru factory matched a 280hp 2.0 STi turbo motor with the 5 speed Subaru trans but the 'Subaru crowd' say they will only take 200hp. Silly Subaru selling millions of cars a year, what do they know? :D

Anyway - let's see some progress shots of your conversion.

Well I appreciate the thoughts on the transmission stuff. I agree that a transmission in a lighter car does see a lot less total load. What do people with 200 hp aircooled motors use as a trans? I'm still debating this. Beside the ring and pinion, don't you also need custom CV stubs and custom length CV shafts? I am just imagining breaking CV shafts and having to get new ones made would be a bit of a downer.

Progress so far is waiting for the car to be delivered from San Diego. It was -10F this morning. Any thoughts on if the car will start when it gets here to move it off the truck? any tips for getting an aircooled motor to fire when it is below zero? Should I just plan on pushing it?

Other than that, I am just trying to plan parts. Looking into megasquirt and trying to decide if I want to go that route or get something already done from Outfront, or try to piece back together the factory stuff.

Here's some other progress photos though...

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51 ford is almost ready for paint! It has a EFI explorer 302 with cam and spring swap to make approx 300 hp backed by a freshened up AOD, and 3.73 8.8" explorer rear axle.

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ryans88gt
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Re: 71 bug - planned EJ20t swap - new member

Post by ryans88gt » Thu Jan 08, 2015 9:58 pm

jrobe wrote:
Check out my FB page on pics of my EJ20T harness.
Can you build me an ECU/harness/sensors to run a JDM EJ20T. I understand the computers and wiring and some sensors may be different, but if I replace those parts with the USDM equivalent, everything should work, right?

I found the pinouts for some the the JDM processors and wiring. Looks doable, but I don't crave spending hours tracing wires. Welding, metal fab, transmissions, engines are the things I enjoy. Wiring I can tolerate, but I have a limit. Body work I have even less patients for.

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ryans88gt
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Re: 71 bug - planned EJ20t swap - new member

Post by ryans88gt » Thu Jan 08, 2015 10:40 pm

ttriebler wrote: Don't forget the price of your adaptor plate, custom flywheel and clutch, shortened sump and short headers wen you do your maths.
Well...$600 for the adapter flywheel and clutch. $900 for the trans new... so $1500

For your gears kit looking at $2000 plus a clutch $200, plus a $400 trans, plus $400 of mounts, plus new CV axles I think. Then shift linkage and clutch linkage...
I am over $1500 difference.

I dont follow with the sump and headers. does the subaru trans raise the engine up? I would think that would cause other issues like tighter fit with cam covers to body and with a higher center of gravity? If it doesnt raise the engine up... why dont you need a shorter sump and short headers?

jrobe
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Re: 71 bug - planned EJ20t swap - new member

Post by jrobe » Fri Jan 09, 2015 12:29 am

ryans88gt wrote:
jrobe wrote:
Check out my FB page on pics of my EJ20T harness.
Can you build me an ECU/harness/sensors to run a JDM EJ20T. I understand the computers and wiring and some sensors may be different, but if I replace those parts with the USDM equivalent, everything should work, right?

I found the pinouts for some the the JDM processors and wiring. Looks doable, but I don't crave spending hours tracing wires. Welding, metal fab, transmissions, engines are the things I enjoy. Wiring I can tolerate, but I have a limit. Body work I have even less patients for.
I'm only set up to do US motors, sorry.

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ttriebler
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Re: 71 bug - planned EJ20t swap - new member

Post by ttriebler » Fri Jan 09, 2015 9:20 pm

ryans88gt wrote:
ttriebler wrote: Don't forget the price of your adaptor plate, custom flywheel and clutch, shortened sump and short headers wen you do your maths.
Well...$600 for the adapter flywheel and clutch. $900 for the trans new... so $1500

For your gears kit looking at $2000 plus a clutch $200, plus a $400 trans, plus $400 of mounts, plus new CV axles I think. Then shift linkage and clutch linkage...
I am over $1500 difference.

I dont follow with the sump and headers. does the subaru trans raise the engine up? I would think that would cause other issues like tighter fit with cam covers to body and with a higher center of gravity? If it doesnt raise the engine up... why dont you need a shorter sump and short headers?
Yep you are pretty much spot on. $1500 difference. Actually $2000 with the short axles from sway-away in your config.
The Subaru trans does usually raise the engine up so you don't need shortened headers and sump....but with a quad cam motor like yours you lower it back down with the extended flanges and short axles. So yeah, my bad, of course you need the same shortened sump and headers. :o

Let's see how you go with this pro-street config - I wanna see some big launches :D
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Re: 71 bug - planned EJ20t swap - new member

Post by ryans88gt » Fri Jan 09, 2015 11:42 pm

ttriebler wrote: Let's see how you go with this pro-street config - I wanna see some big launches :D
Haha... I bet. Well I am going to give it a try and if I break it, I'll buy the Subagears parts.

Outfrontmotorports tells me I should have no issues if I am street driving with a prostreet trans and keeping it to around 200 hp.

They are also trying to sell me on the idea of doing a EJ25 SOHC NA motor instead for the 200 hp level, it would be an easier swap.

However, it doesn't seem like the EJ25 SOHC are prevalently available online and maybe not used in JDM cars?

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