CB PERFORMANCE DRY SUMP PUMP.

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Passatman
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CB PERFORMANCE DRY SUMP PUMP.

Post by Passatman » Thu May 12, 2016 5:39 pm

Good day Guys,

Has anyone ever used this pump.

http://www.cbperformance.com/ProductDet ... tCode=1745

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Fiatdude
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Re: CB PERFORMANCE DRY SUMP PUMP.

Post by Fiatdude » Thu May 12, 2016 6:58 pm

That's a great system -- a lot of the road race guys swear by them -- I've got one on my shelf to install, but I need to rework the pulley to install my crank trigger wheel and I've working too much to get around to it.....

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Marc
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Re: CB PERFORMANCE DRY SUMP PUMP.

Post by Marc » Thu May 12, 2016 7:35 pm

A Schadek pump of that design worked well in our circletrack race engines. The oil has to take a pretty circuitous path through rather small passages compared to a full-size drysump pump but we never had issues with pressure in operation. After a long feature in hot weather the pressure would be low at idle, even with 20W-50 Kendall (a.k.a. Brad Penn) but we never needed to idle ;)

The pulley normally used with these is pretty small - fine for methanol but for street use on gas you may find a smaller alternator pulley will be needed for adequate cooling, or perhaps an aftermarket serpentine-belt setup designed to give more clearance.
When we wanted to up the fan speed a little we'd switch to a "standard" power pulley which'd had it's backside trimmed away on a lathe; with an iron flat cover, which could be ground away slightly at the top without impairing its seal, there was just enough room (had to loosen the bolt and slide the pulley back to get the belt on).

The gaskets are specialized for this pump, but it's not difficult to modify stock-style gaskets to fit with some sharp nail scissors.

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Re: CB PERFORMANCE DRY SUMP PUMP.

Post by Passatman » Thu May 12, 2016 7:48 pm

Was looking at trying this on a oxyboxer 2.5ltr daily driver.

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Re: CB PERFORMANCE DRY SUMP PUMP.

Post by rrb6699 » Fri May 13, 2016 6:44 am

my sump is leaking from around the gasket. since I don't know a lot about bugs, what do I need to watch out for if I simply want to make a gasket for it? would a different sump benefit me or should I just leave things as they are?

why would you need to modify the pulley if you change sumps? I've heard a larger sump volume can make the engine cool more efficiently. I already installed an 8-pass oil cooler with filter to help with this.

thx,
RR

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Marc
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Re: CB PERFORMANCE DRY SUMP PUMP.

Post by Marc » Fri May 13, 2016 7:41 am

Not really the topic under discussion here. We're talking about a "dry-sump" oiling system which uses a remote storage tank for the oil, and a pump which has two sections, one to scavenge the sump and send the oil to the tank, and one to draw oil from the tank to supply the bearings under pressure. With such a setup, no extended sump is required or desired - the object is to carry as little oil as possible inside the crankcase. Because of the increased length of a dry-sump pump, it's necessary to run a smaller-diameter crankshaft pulley of some kind.

The bolt-on "deep sumps" just use a stock oil strainer-plate gasket, usually installed with a generous amount of sealant. If you have leakage between the case and the sump (and the mating surfaces are flat) it's most often due to the attachment hardware working loose.
With the exception of the Gene Berg sumps that have counterbored holes and special extended nuts, deep sumps need longer studs installed in the case - long enough that Nylock shakeproof nuts have something to grab onto. One of those studs also serves as a hold-down point to secure the oil pump pickup to the bottom of the case and is a bear to access on an assembled engine. Details here: viewtopic.php?f=34&t=148583&p=1233661

The stock "doghouse" fan shroud and stock cooler are usually adequate for the majority of street engines. Of all the shrouds available, it has the best arrangement of internal vanes to properly direct cooling air over the heads...and accepts a wider cooling fan which pumps more air to support the dedicated air supply to the cooler. The hot air is ducted out of the engine compartment over the transaxle, rather than staying in the engine compartment and being drawn through the fan. Nearly anything you would use to replace that setup is a big step backwards (of course, the folks making & selling oil coolers don't point this out). In the rare event that you truly need more oil cooling than the stock doghouse setup offers, an additional cooler can be installed in series with a full-flow oil filter, while leaving the stock shroud & cooler intact.

Basically, adding oil capacity with a deep sump is necessary when the engine's powerful enough to generate enough G-force on acceleration to stack the oil at the rear of the stock sump, which allows the pump to suck air. Few stock-displacement engines can do that, but even a fairly tame 1775 may. Even though an oil pressure gauge may still indicate "sufficient" pressure, when air enters the system it turns the oil into a milkshake - that aerated oil is not as effective at lubricating the bearings. Extended hard cornering can result in the same sort of problem with any engine by stacking the oil in the cylinder heads and sides of the sump. The object of adding a "basement" is to carry enough oil over the pickup to prevent it from becoming uncovered. The additional capacity has no direct effect on oil temperature, beyond the additional surface area of the sump transferring a little heat out - what it does do is extend the time needed for the engine to reach full operating temperature (and also the time it needs to cool down after shutoff) so for most applications there's little point in running a sump any bigger than the ubiquitous +1½ quart ones. Generally, a larger-capacity sump is going to reduce your ground clearance even further and that's not good.

Let's not continue in this thread, if you have more comments/questions please start a new one.

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Re: CB PERFORMANCE DRY SUMP PUMP.

Post by FJCamper » Mon May 30, 2016 5:31 pm

http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic ... 5&t=141653

http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic ... 5&t=142178

Hi Passatman,

Above is the link to installing the CB pump, and the race test.

Our experience with the CB pump has been excellent.

FJC

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Re: CB PERFORMANCE DRY SUMP PUMP.

Post by Passatman » Sun Jun 05, 2016 2:43 pm

Thank you I will review them. Is your engine still running with the CB Performance setup, have you had a chance to look at the bearings, do they still look nice and new?

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Re: CB PERFORMANCE DRY SUMP PUMP.

Post by Marc » Sun Jun 05, 2016 7:31 pm

If they don't, I'd lay the blame on aeration from that square tank. Before I went dry-sump I was replacing rod bearings at least every six races; after the switch they'd last a season (at 11¼:1 C.R., VW rod). In a few years the parts (and oil) savings alone covered the initial expense, wish I'd done it sooner.

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Re: CB PERFORMANCE DRY SUMP PUMP.

Post by Passatman » Mon Jun 06, 2016 6:39 am

This is what i like to hear. My car will be street driven. I am going to use a waterboxer block converted to aircooled for my engine, it will be 4 inch bore with hopefully the stock counter weighted crank.

Marc how was the fit of the pump in the case, did you have to o ring it and which case are you using?

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Re: CB PERFORMANCE DRY SUMP PUMP.

Post by Passatman » Sun Jun 12, 2016 4:00 pm

Ok so i have read the report on the CB system and i think i will pass on this pump and choose something else. My reason for choosing something else is i want more scavenged locations from the pump as i am going to run a turbo later in the life of the engine.

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Re: CB PERFORMANCE DRY SUMP PUMP.

Post by jps1145 » Tue Jun 14, 2016 7:13 pm

I run this pump and the CB tank in my 5 car. 2276 Type 1 with about 10:1 compression. I swear by it! With all the bouncing around and air time I get, I have zero pressure problems. I have a gigantic cooler and run a large HD oil filter. All in, it hold roughly 10 quarts of oil. The crank pulley has to be very small to clear the large pump, basically the "power" pulley size. I countered that with a very small alternator pulley from a Porsche 356. That got the fan speed back up to normal.
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Re: CB PERFORMANCE DRY SUMP PUMP.

Post by Piledriver » Tue Jun 14, 2016 7:42 pm

Passatman wrote:Ok so i have read the report on the CB system and i think i will pass on this pump and choose something else. My reason for choosing something else is i want more scavenged locations from the pump as i am going to run a turbo later in the life of the engine.

The available autocraft, bugpack and similar pumps are also only 2 stage.
(one pressure and one scavenge, both immense)

IIRC autocraft does a 3 stage or 4, but very long and far more $$$$ than sense.
External multi-stage belt drive scavenge pumps are cheap and very common, and you can then use the cb pump or even a stock pump for pressure only or pressure and a scavenge stage.

They also build electric scavenge pumps that work fine, cheap these days, they used to be either inexpensive or work, not both.
Last edited by Piledriver on Tue Jun 14, 2016 7:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: CB PERFORMANCE DRY SUMP PUMP.

Post by Piledriver » Tue Jun 14, 2016 7:44 pm

jps1145 wrote:I run this pump and the CB tank in my 5 car. 2276 Type 1 with about 10:1 compression. I swear by it! With all the bouncing around and air time I get, I have zero pressure problems. I have a gigantic cooler and run a large HD oil filter. All in, it hold roughly 10 quarts of oil. The crank pulley has to be very small to clear the large pump, basically the "power" pulley size. I countered that with a very small alternator pulley from a Porsche 356. That got the fan speed back up to normal.

Do you run the filter/cooler on scavenge or pressure stage?
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Re: CB PERFORMANCE DRY SUMP PUMP.

Post by jps1145 » Tue Jun 14, 2016 8:44 pm

Piledriver wrote:
jps1145 wrote:I run this pump and the CB tank in my 5 car. 2276 Type 1 with about 10:1 compression. I swear by it! With all the bouncing around and air time I get, I have zero pressure problems. I have a gigantic cooler and run a large HD oil filter. All in, it hold roughly 10 quarts of oil. The crank pulley has to be very small to clear the large pump, basically the "power" pulley size. I countered that with a very small alternator pulley from a Porsche 356. That got the fan speed back up to normal.

Do you run the filter/cooler on scavenge or pressure stage?
Scavenge side. Oil is "pushed" through the filter then cooler then into the tank, and "sucked" from the tank.
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