Electronic Ignition vs Points
- MrGolf
- Posts: 340
- Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2002 1:01 am
Re: Electronic Ignition vs Points
Have the petronics in my 69 beetle for 5 years now. Done nothing except adjust valves when you should. Stock 1600dp.
Putting one in wifes 72 super this spring (stock 1600dp) and in my 76 Westy 2.0 fi also. Just like the idea of the maintenance free thing. Along with the 40,000 volt flamethrower coil you get a hotter spark. Each to his own I guess, but my experience with electronic ignition has been a good one so far.
Putting one in wifes 72 super this spring (stock 1600dp) and in my 76 Westy 2.0 fi also. Just like the idea of the maintenance free thing. Along with the 40,000 volt flamethrower coil you get a hotter spark. Each to his own I guess, but my experience with electronic ignition has been a good one so far.
- Glenn
- Posts: 5108
- Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2001 12:01 am
Re: Electronic Ignition vs Points
I've seen 6 of them fail in the first few months in the past 2 years. I've also tested a few and found the magnets are not exactly 90* apart.
As to better performance... points and blue coil are plenty for my 2180cc w/ dual IDAs. Rock solid spark well into the 7000rpm range.
So to each their own.
As to better performance... points and blue coil are plenty for my 2180cc w/ dual IDAs. Rock solid spark well into the 7000rpm range.
So to each their own.
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- Posts: 17721
- Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2006 10:17 pm
Re: Electronic Ignition vs Points
The main reason I went electronic was that condensers don't like sand very well. I used to carry around a couple of sets and it wasn't unusual to give a set to someone out on the dunes.
I was having troubles with my new engine down at Horsfall (I think) and a guy from Strictly Foreign stopped by to see if he could help (I was in the parking area) and when he left he gave me set of points and condenser; nice guy and although it happened well over 15 years ago I haven't forgotten that. The problem turned out to be with the new Brosel Pict 34 carb. It ran nice for about an hour then “pooped” (took a dump) on me.
Lee
I was having troubles with my new engine down at Horsfall (I think) and a guy from Strictly Foreign stopped by to see if he could help (I was in the parking area) and when he left he gave me set of points and condenser; nice guy and although it happened well over 15 years ago I haven't forgotten that. The problem turned out to be with the new Brosel Pict 34 carb. It ran nice for about an hour then “pooped” (took a dump) on me.
Lee
- Marc
- Moderator
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- Joined: Thu May 23, 2002 12:01 am
Re: Electronic Ignition vs Points
We ran an 010 with Porsche points and a Blue Coil on our Class I Unlimited rail and never experienced any condenser failure running at the Horn Rapids ORV park in eastern Washington (quite sandy but far inland, no ocean nearby). I did notice that the points would sometimes get contaminated from crankcase blowby fumes getting into the distributor, but since they were always checked/cleaned before each race it never got to the point of causing any trouble. I just can't visualize how a simple capacitor in a metal can could care about the presence of sand in the external environs, and wonder if your trouble might've been more with vibration, salt, or a bad batch of condensers.Ol'fogasaurus wrote:The main reason I went electronic was that condensers don't like sand very well...
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Re: Electronic Ignition vs Points
My first trip to the dunes, I went through two sets of points/condensers at Moses Lake and gave away one set there too. At Beverly Dunes at Vantage it was on set. At Florence it was one set and a ticket for no off-road sticker (confusion as at that time the word was if it was street legal then no need for a permit. It turned out that that was true for motor cycles not buggies [got my money back at court after writing a letter and this being my first ticket in OR]. Now even two wheelers have to have permits). I was warned several times when I bought my buggy that condensers do not like silica; based on my first few rides, it seemed to me to be true so I went to Pertronix (I think they used to be Allied or Allison but changed their name). I did and still do run a Bosch “blue coil”, the one that does not need a dropping resister. The first time I tore down the buggy after these rides, I checked out the wiring before I replaced it and it seemed to be OK and had no problems with the lack of fuses (other than they were the stock fuses that liked to jump out of the box when they felt like it. Not the problem in this case) and bad wires themselves. So far, I have had no problems since I converted other than I replaced my Pertronix once thinking it was dead which later turned out not to be the problem with the car it was something else (I forget now what it was).
One of the buggy engine builders in the southern dunes does not necessarly like or use electronic ignitions (but sold them) and does do quite well with them. He still runs them in his Blown ACVW rail in Figure 8 races (I have no idea what that is but the last I heard, he runs still them). Most of the rest of the sand guys I know have now converted to electronic ignitions.
Lee
One of the buggy engine builders in the southern dunes does not necessarly like or use electronic ignitions (but sold them) and does do quite well with them. He still runs them in his Blown ACVW rail in Figure 8 races (I have no idea what that is but the last I heard, he runs still them). Most of the rest of the sand guys I know have now converted to electronic ignitions.
Lee
- Marc
- Moderator
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Re: Electronic Ignition vs Points
Well, since I have comparatively little experience with playing in the sand I'll have to defer to yours, but it still doesn't make any sense to me.
IF I had ever experienced such a problem, my first reaction would be to simply relocate the condenser to a sealed location (nothing says it needs to be on the distributor housing, and electrically it could be anywhere between there and the tachometer) rather than give up in favor of electronics...
IF I had ever experienced such a problem, my first reaction would be to simply relocate the condenser to a sealed location (nothing says it needs to be on the distributor housing, and electrically it could be anywhere between there and the tachometer) rather than give up in favor of electronics...
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Re: Electronic Ignition vs Points
As you said: I also deferred to others I felt wiser than me. This was my first VW and I knew nothing about them and got stiffed a lot especially by one place in Lynnwood that dealt with VWs.
As far as relocating the condenser I asked about that back when I was a mechanic ('59 - '61) and was told that is probably wasn't a good idea; that doesn't mean that they knew what they were talking about either. At that time most of the cars I worked on or had (by the '90's I had had a lot of cars… and I mean a lot of cars) had the condensers in the distributer itself. We did not reuse condensers or even consider reusing them; it just wasn't felt to be a good idea.
The recommendation at the time was to go electronic and as I said… so far I have been happy and have had no real problems. That doesn’t mean I recommend them or recommend not using points either. It is a personal thing as far as I am concerned.
Lee
As far as relocating the condenser I asked about that back when I was a mechanic ('59 - '61) and was told that is probably wasn't a good idea; that doesn't mean that they knew what they were talking about either. At that time most of the cars I worked on or had (by the '90's I had had a lot of cars… and I mean a lot of cars) had the condensers in the distributer itself. We did not reuse condensers or even consider reusing them; it just wasn't felt to be a good idea.
The recommendation at the time was to go electronic and as I said… so far I have been happy and have had no real problems. That doesn’t mean I recommend them or recommend not using points either. It is a personal thing as far as I am concerned.
Lee
- MinamiKotaro
- Posts: 2071
- Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2005 6:26 am
Re: Electronic Ignition vs Points
That statement referred mostly to the turbo stuff and suspension mods, especially the suspension mods necessary to put 290HP to the ground in a Beetle. I love my 2276 and I would never consider going back to a stock 1600, carburetors, and a distributor (points or otherwise). In fact, I'm going to get rid of the VW engine altogether and stuff a Subaru in the engine compartment. I love the aircooled VW, there's nothing else like it, but it's time to move on.Marc wrote:This from the man who drives a Saturn when he needs to actually go somewhere, and responded thusly to the question "how much time and money do you have in your setup?":But seriously, to some extent you've made my point. Since I run a conventional system in my daily driver, the only spare ignition parts onboard are one each used points & condenser...and I'm not at all afraid to rely on my car for everyday commuting or a roadtrip of any distance.MinamiKotaro wrote:Way too much. Wish I had a stock VW and all that money back.
And, yes, for any sort of extended trip I'd definitely pick the Saturn over the Bug. The Saturn gets good milage, has comfortable seats, has wipers that actually work, has heat and AC, etc, etc. My Bug could function as a daily driver and would go anywhere I wish and back but the Saturn is just the better car. No old VW could ever dream of being as good a car as the Saturn. (That's another reason I want to go the Subaru route. The Subaru engine would have just as much power as the 2276 and modern, OEM reliability. A VW engine will never come anywhere close to it for my purposes.)
'67 Beetle, 2276
MS-1 v3.57
MS-1 v3.57
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- Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2003 2:37 pm
Re: Electronic Ignition vs Points
Kind of a well, duh statement. You're comparing apples and oranges. It's a given that a modern car has the benefit of new technology. The rubric here is keeping 30, 40 or 50yr old VWs on the road. My six year old Subaru needed a turbo replacement 48 hours before the warranty expired, saving me over $1000. But since my daughter will be driving it for at least three more years I won't be so lucky the next time. And since she's in college driving in stop-and-go city traffic it's a given that the turbo will fail again. So I keep fixing my '67 bug every time something fails. Thankfully I get great advice here. Although the parts add up they're still a lot cheaper than another car note and prevent me from needing to ride my bike to work in 20 degree weather.
My first car was a '65 VW with a crank sunroof, purchased in 1973 for $300. Driving an old bug reminds me of my youth.
kevin
My first car was a '65 VW with a crank sunroof, purchased in 1973 for $300. Driving an old bug reminds me of my youth.
kevin
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- Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 5:36 pm
Re: Electronic Ignition vs Points
I am a traditionalist also. The only thing I had heard over the years was that points could behave badly if you were in extended hard rains or lengthy periods of very damp conditions. I had an old bug in the 1970's that did have occasional problems in this area, but nothing unworkable. There are times when we would use a hair dryer on the cap, inside and out...and away we went.
- Lotrat
- Posts: 4975
- Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2008 11:43 pm
Re: Electronic Ignition vs Points
I got my current bug 4 years ago and it came with a Compufire module in it. No idea how old it is. I would never have bought it myself since you can buy 10 sets of points for the same price. It's been working just fine for me. The rubber boot must have come off during a desert trip and the dizzy was filled with a heavy layer of dust and sand which I only discovered by chance while poking around. You'd never know it buy how the motor ran. If it fails I'll probably go back to points, but if I ever have any odd issues I'd probably spring for the electronics.
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- Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2001 12:01 am
Re: Electronic Ignition vs Points
I've had the same bug since 5 Jan 1971.
In about 77 I built an early version of a CDI from a kit (folks in Aus might remember Dick Smith Electronics when it was a real electronics store and not a TV/PC retailer like now) - they called it a "singing brick" for the whine the toroidal transformer inside it made. It used the original points as the Hall Effect sensor wasn't around then. It worked just fine for many years, until on a trip from Darwin to Adelaide (3200km) the engine died, and it took me a while to realise that the points rubbing block had worn down and the points weren't opening. Easy fixed once I found the problem, but it occurred because the points didn't need checking for burning as before, so they were forgotten.
Eventually the home made CDI died and I reverted to the original setup and just haven't got around to trying an electronic ignition since.
I find it rather theraputic to sit on a stool behind the engine contemplating it whilst I file the hill of the points and reset them
In about 77 I built an early version of a CDI from a kit (folks in Aus might remember Dick Smith Electronics when it was a real electronics store and not a TV/PC retailer like now) - they called it a "singing brick" for the whine the toroidal transformer inside it made. It used the original points as the Hall Effect sensor wasn't around then. It worked just fine for many years, until on a trip from Darwin to Adelaide (3200km) the engine died, and it took me a while to realise that the points rubbing block had worn down and the points weren't opening. Easy fixed once I found the problem, but it occurred because the points didn't need checking for burning as before, so they were forgotten.
Eventually the home made CDI died and I reverted to the original setup and just haven't got around to trying an electronic ignition since.
I find it rather theraputic to sit on a stool behind the engine contemplating it whilst I file the hill of the points and reset them
Regards
Rob
Rob and Dave's aircooled VW pages
Repairs and Maintenance for the home mechanic
www.vw-resource.com
Rob
Rob and Dave's aircooled VW pages
Repairs and Maintenance for the home mechanic
www.vw-resource.com
- Jim Ed
- Posts: 765
- Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2010 5:14 am
Re: Electronic Ignition vs Points
I have been using a Tiger CDI and Pertronix ignition in my '73 beetle since about 2000.
This CDI has a switch so you can bypass the CDI and just use the points or Pertronix.
I only drive the Beetle a little on weekends though.
I do not miss having to adjust the points twice a year one bit.
This CDI has a switch so you can bypass the CDI and just use the points or Pertronix.
I only drive the Beetle a little on weekends though.
I do not miss having to adjust the points twice a year one bit.
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- Posts: 182
- Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 5:27 pm
Re: Electronic Ignition vs Points
I built my engine in 07. I installed a Bosch 019 distributor with a Pertronix #1844 electronic ignition module. No problems at all in 5 years of running. With a points and condenser ignition the gap would need adjusting every 3 or 4000 miles and a timing check. No such thing with electronic ignition. Just replace the cap and rotor once a year. I do maintain the engines in all the VW's I've owned over the last 40 years very carefully. Tire pressures, oil and filter changes
and valve adjusts once a month, need it or not. Not needing to change points and condensers
means a little less time involved in my maintenance routine.
Ainokea
and valve adjusts once a month, need it or not. Not needing to change points and condensers
means a little less time involved in my maintenance routine.
Ainokea