Need Major MSD Distributor Help

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elev8_dude
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Need Major MSD Distributor Help

Post by elev8_dude » Thu Jun 07, 2007 12:17 pm

I can't figure out where I'm supposed to be on my timing. I'm all over the place. I'm burnt out on it. Thanks

What bushing and spring combination would you recommend with this set up.

Vehicle: 1969 VW Beetle
Engine: 1915cc (Type 1)
Crankshaft: Forged Counter Weighted
Cam: C35
Compression: 8:1
Power Band: 3,000-5,000
Valves: 40x35
Mixture (Air/Fuel): Slightly Rich
Fuel Octane: 93
Carburetors: Dual 44 Webers (w/CB Performance Update Kit)
Ignition: MSD 6AL (Rev Limiter @ 6,000 RPM)
Coil: MSD Blaster SS
Distributor: MSD Distributor (8485)
Spark Plug Wires: MSD Wires (3193)
Spark Plugs: Bosch Supers (7401)
Battery: Optima Red Top
Alternator: 12v

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2332 baja
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Post by 2332 baja » Fri Jun 08, 2007 5:34 am

I'm not sure how well this will work with your engine but I'm using the 2 lightest springs and,,, I think,,, the black bushing. I set my timing by revving it up to around 3500 rpm and set to 32btdc. IIRC the idle timing ends up at around 10btdc @ 1000 rpm. If you timing is jumpy at idle with the 2 light springs then replace one of them with a slightly stronger spring.

I have the same ignition system as you but it's on a 2332 drag car that see's only a few street miles. However, it does run fine on the street.

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2332 baja
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Post by 2332 baja » Fri Jun 08, 2007 7:24 am

Sorry if my above post was a little vague,,, I hadn't finished my coffee :wink:

I'm using the 2 silver (lightest) springs & the black bushing.
Timing set @ 32 degrees with the engine revved to approx 3.5k rpm.

If the timing wanders at idle,,, remove one of the silver springs and install a blue spring.

Give this a shot. If you hear detonation, either back the timing off a little or install replace the other silver with a blue to bring the timing in slower.

The key elements that you need are,,,
Full advance by around 3k rpm
No more than 32 degrees timing at full advance.

BTW, what is the primary use for this car/engine?

elev8_dude
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Post by elev8_dude » Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:44 am

daily driver and shhhhhhhhhhh street racer. But you didn't hear it from me. Thanks for the information.

I currently have the factory installed bushing and the two blue springs with initial advance at 10 degrees. Doesn't feel like its all there. I will compare to your info and reset.

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2332 baja
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Post by 2332 baja » Fri Jun 08, 2007 10:55 am

Just be careful with the street racing. Can't say that I've never done it before but it's been a while.

I still need to double check the bushing that I'm using. It's been 2 years since I set mine up and my memory isn't as good as it once was :roll: I'll try to find out tonight after work and let you know for sure.

elev8_dude
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Post by elev8_dude » Fri Jun 08, 2007 12:45 pm

in my defense the street racing is very limited.

I appreciate all your help. Look forward to the additional information

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2332 baja
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Post by 2332 baja » Sun Jun 10, 2007 12:45 pm

No need to defend yourself. I think we have all done it and I still can't resist playin' around from light to light.

I checked my remaining spacers and it seems as though I have the Blue spacer rather than the Black one. And, now that I have done the math,,, it makes sense. I think the Blue spacer is what you should use no matter what but you may have to play around with the springs to get the curve right for your car. For a purely street car,,, you may want to bring the advance in a little slower. Looks as though no one else is using this dist on the street or perhaps they're not willing to share their combo :?

Anyhow, good luck and post up when you find out what works.

RG64
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Post by RG64 » Sun Jun 10, 2007 4:20 pm

I installed one on my last bug before I sold it, 1600DP daily driver. I used the two light springs but honestly do not remember which bushing I chose (most likely the red). I think I ended setting it @ 26 degrees @ full advance and let it land wherever at initial since I wanted to use cheap gas and drive it at 70 on the freeway. Sold it before I could play with it some more, by the way it was coupled to an msd digital 6 plus ignition. I had planned to install a window switch to retard it on top end and advance it a little more to give it better midrange acceleration but never got around to it.

Try reading through the instructions on their website and although you may be tired of fiddling with it, it's the best way to find the best advance curve and timing for your engine since no one will care more about it than you.

http://www.msdignition.com/pdf/8485_frm11992.pdf

Rick

elev8_dude
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Post by elev8_dude » Sun Jun 10, 2007 7:30 pm

I messed with it a little this weekend. Got it a little better. But know my father noticed miss firing at low RPM's. I just changed the plugs recently. The hunt continues for the perfect fix. Thanks for all your help so far. Anymore info is appreciated.

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2332 baja
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Post by 2332 baja » Mon Jun 11, 2007 5:50 am

I know it may be a pain,,, but you may want to try sticking another distributor in it and removing the 6AL. You might find out that you have other problems that just seem like a firing problem.

I've had several carb issues that could have been blamed on firing. A couple examples.
My linkage was in perfect sync at idle and just off idle. But, one car advanced a little faster than the other causing it to reach full throttle earlier. I had to drill a new hole in one of the carb linkage arms to cure it. Works perfect from idle to WOT now.
Also, I sucked in a manifold gasket between the head & intake. That caused it to miss and hunt at idle,,, but cleared up and seem fine at cruising speed.

I'm not trying to lead you astray (SP?) just saying, don't put blinders on when looking for the cause of a problem. I'm sure you'll find it in time. And, if you get stuck,,, post as much detail about the symptoms as you can think of.
O and don't forget to post your findings because it could save someone else a major headache :wink:

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tattooed_pariah
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Re: Need Major MSD Distributor Help

Post by tattooed_pariah » Thu Jul 06, 2017 6:55 am

Holy Ancient Thread Batman!!!

Found this while googling "vw msd distributor curve"

I understand how timing works, but am just not able to grasp the whole curve thing so I'm looking for someone to put it into captain dummy talk and throw some ideas at me for my issue.

Engine specs:
1776cc
DPR 69mm CW Crank
Engle W110 cam
40x35.5 Brothers heads
Dual Spanish 40IDF Webers
MSD 6AL box, MSD Blaster 2 High Vibration Coil, MSD Distributor (two light silver springs, black bushing)
chromolly pushrods, valve lash set to ~.003

Timing is currently set at 32 all-in, which puts it around 20 at idle, it doesn't like idling below about 1300-1500rpm though..

Symptoms:
Driving in any gear, maintaining about 2100-2300rpm it pops a little
It runs fine, but really doesn't feel like it's getting much power until you hit about 2500rpms, then it pulls hard..

My speculation:
I need to bring the curve in sooner? but while I know that term, I'm not sure if that's a proper diagnosis or if I should be looking elsewhere..

If I'm understanding the msd manual properly, with two light silver springs and the black bushing, the centrifugal advance should be starting around 1600rpm, so that fits if my idle is around 1500..

any help is appreciated!
-pariah

"I never trust a fighting man who doesn't smoke or drink or at least cause a little trouble." -Admiral William Frederick Halsey Jr.

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2009 Dodge Challenger R/T
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66brm
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Re: Need Major MSD Distributor Help

Post by 66brm » Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:36 am

Why is your idle so high? I would try get it down to 900-1000, then aim to have the advance start at around 1100ish from a base near 8dbtdc up to 28-30 at 2500rpms. Ill see what I've set my 2176 to and get back

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tattooed_pariah
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Re: Need Major MSD Distributor Help

Post by tattooed_pariah » Sun Jul 09, 2017 10:38 am

66brm wrote:
Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:36 am
Why is your idle so high? I would try get it down to 900-1000, then aim to have the advance start at around 1100ish from a base near 8dbtdc up to 28-30 at 2500rpms. Ill see what I've set my 2176 to and get back
I wouldn't normally havethe idle so high, but if i turn the screw out any further, it winds up stumbling and dying..

all in at 2500 seems a little low? i thought it should be all in by 3200?
-pariah

"I never trust a fighting man who doesn't smoke or drink or at least cause a little trouble." -Admiral William Frederick Halsey Jr.

1972 VolksRod Build Thread
2009 Dodge Challenger R/T
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Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Need Major MSD Distributor Help

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Sun Jul 09, 2017 10:58 am

#1 have your distributer spun on a Sun Machine. That will tell you a lot about the condition (bushings/bearing, shaft, et al) of your distributer and what the advance is doing. Not all of the VW distributers are the same, some are worse and with the age and use of them it is best to see just what you have. Even some of the aftermarket units are found lacking.

#2 check for air leaks in your fuel system. With the cam I am not sure a vacuum gauge will help but from what you are saying the air/fuel mixture might be affected. Popping out the exhaust usually is a rich condition and at the carb a timing condition (if I remember correctly).

Also check you spark plug wires and, especially, the coil wire. We had a off reading on the plugs on one side of an ACVW engine that had the longer plug wires. Took a volt/OHM meter and checked and checked them and all looked good. He was going to stop there when I recommended checking the high tension lead, which he did, and missed a different reading; I asked him to try it again then he saw it. Got a new lead plus a new cap and rotor (slight carbon on the metal parts and the rotor also had a carbon buildup around the contact between the high tension lead and the rotor) and wha-la, most, if not all of the problem of the problem went away. It sometimes is the small stuff that is missed.

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tattooed_pariah
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Re: Need Major MSD Distributor Help

Post by tattooed_pariah » Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:07 pm

Ol'fogasaurus wrote:
Sun Jul 09, 2017 10:58 am
#1 have your distributer spun on a Sun Machine. That will tell you a lot about the condition (bushings/bearing, shaft, et al) of your distributer and what the advance is doing. Not all of the VW distributers are the same, some are worse and with the age and use of them it is best to see just what you have. Even some of the aftermarket units are found lacking.

#2 check for air leaks in your fuel system. With the cam I am not sure a vacuum gauge will help but from what you are saying the air/fuel mixture might be affected. Popping out the exhaust usually is a rich condition and at the carb a timing condition (if I remember correctly).

Also check you spark plug wires and, especially, the coil wire. We had a off reading on the plugs on one side of an ACVW engine that had the longer plug wires. Took a volt/OHM meter and checked and checked them and all looked good. He was going to stop there when I recommended checking the high tension lead, which he did, and missed a different reading; I asked him to try it again then he saw it. Got a new lead plus a new cap and rotor (slight carbon on the metal parts and the rotor also had a carbon buildup around the contact between the high tension lead and the rotor) and wha-la, most, if not all of the problem of the problem went away. It sometimes is the small stuff that is missed.
are Sun machine's common? I've found aftermarket performance shops extremely lacking in the Hampton Roads, Virginia area..

I have a fuel pressure gauge in the engine compartment and it registers about 3.5psi with little to no fluctuation.. I'm not using any vacuum in the engine..where would i plug a gauge in? I do have a snail gauge if that's what you mean?

Plug wires are brand new MSD 8.5mm wires, except the coil lead. the MSD terminal was a POS and won't stay on the coil, so I'm using a Pertronix coil lead that's about 3 months older than the other four.. it's also 8.5mm

Coil is a brand new MSD High vibration Blaster 2.

When I installed everything I put a dab of dielectric grease on it all to ward off corrosion in this shitty air..
-pariah

"I never trust a fighting man who doesn't smoke or drink or at least cause a little trouble." -Admiral William Frederick Halsey Jr.

1972 VolksRod Build Thread
2009 Dodge Challenger R/T
1986 Honda Shadow VT1100 Work Thread

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