009 timing at idle and full advance...

gmd · Post by **gmd** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 5:27 am

When I time my 009 distributor on my 2017cc engine (dual 44s, 042 heads, etc.) for 30 degrees BTDC at full advance, the idle timing is then 13 degrees BTDC. I have always heard that idle timing should be about 9-10 degrees BTDC, which mine is not. Is this a problem? Should I just let the idle timing fall where it wants, or should I retard the full advance timing to say 27 degrees in order to get the idle down to 10 defrees BTDC?

mschilling · Post by **mschilling** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 6:35 am

The difference btwn idle and full advance is 20? in your case. Nornally (on mine) it's more like 24? so maybe there's something wrong with your dist.

gmd · Post by **gmd** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 7:07 am

mschilling-Thanks for the reply. Yeah, the difference between idle and full advance is about 19-20 degrees. (30-32 BTDC at 3000 rpm, 12-13 degrees at 1100 rpm idle.) Will this cause problems, and will retarding the timing at full advance to about 27 (which will bring the idle down to about 10 degrees BTDC) make any difference? I guess my question really is about the idle timing not being important as long as full advance is about 30-32 degrees. (I hadn't thought about the DIFFERENCE in degrees between idle and full advance being an issue...)

mschilling · Post by **mschilling** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 7:41 am

Sure it's a problem. 009s don't have enough advance to start with (24) so less is worse. Too far advanced at idle just makes it harder to start. I'd set it for correct advance at speed and find another dist. Otherwise you'll have no power. And the 30 at full is not gospel, you can try higher and see how it runs, listening for pinging.

James2 · Post by **James2** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 8:08 am

you can run the 009 and still run a lot of adavnce at idle.

Two ways-
1- run a cut off switch for the ignition. Turn the starter over with the key, once it's spining good, flip the cut off switch to on, and it start-

2. run a starter retard or get a Ing bow with starter retard.

rcb78 · Post by **rcb78** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 6:16 pm

My engine starts just fine at 14 BTDC at idle, also pulls harder than it does with less initial advance. Great thing about a Mallory, you can play with lots of stuff. --Ryan

gmd · Post by **gmd** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 7:23 pm

RCB78-You say you have about 14 degrees BTDC at idle. do you have 30at full advance? How long have you run your engine like this, and like mine is this where your idle sits when you have 30 degrees full advance?

rcb78 · Post by **rcb78** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 7:41 pm

My full advance is about 30, give or take a degree. I've been running like this for over a year now and haven't had a problem. It's not a 009 though, it's a Mallory Unilite distributer. I actually set it that way 'cause that's where I wanted it. I played with the numbers a bit when I first got the distributer and ended up where I am now. No dyno time or anything, but this is where it 'feels' right.
I should add that even with my old 009, I played with the advance stops inside and set it to idle at 14 and max out at 32. It was a little archaic compared the Mallory, but it was all I could do at the time. --Ryan

gmd · Post by **gmd** » Sun May 02, 2004 5:54 am

Hey RCB78-Thanks for the replies. My engine seems to "feel right" at 13 degrees BTDC idle as well, and I'm not sure if that means I have a problem with my 009 or not. I may just buy a new one for about $50 at the local V-dub parts store at some point. What kind of engine set-up are you running? On a similar note, I have my valves set at .002 (chromoly push rods). Do you agree with setting them like that or do you think that's too tight? I have heard of setting them in several ways, from "zero lash" to stock .006...

GhiaMonster · Post by **GhiaMonster** » Sun May 02, 2004 6:38 am

ChromeMolys are set to zero. No feeler required, just spin them with your fingers while tightening. You should just
be able to spin them with a slight drag when you're there.

rcb78 · Post by **rcb78** » Sun May 02, 2004 8:14 am

Engine is a 1915, 42x37 heads by AJ, 86b cam, 9.2 CR, dual 44s with CBs update kit, and a 1 5/8" header w/ A1 Phat Boy.
Personally, I'm not a fan of zero lash on Chromo PRs, I always ran .004". There is a short time on cold starts where the valve stem expands faster than the rest of the engine and holds the valve open just a hair. I'm using AC.nets super HD aluminum PRs now and run them at .007". I've spun them up to 7500 rpm with Bugpack dual racing springs and haven't had a single issue with them. --Ryan

Mark H · Post by **Mark H** » Sun May 02, 2004 9:39 am

Timing requirements (idel or full) are different on differnt motors. I have used many MSD distributors with ajustable timing and set them up with 14-16 at idel and 30-32 at full advance. This works great on street motors with 9 to 1 compr and 295 or more cam duration on 91 oct. But if you have a bigger cam then your idel timing can be even higher. My buddies motor is a 214 HP 2275cc with a web 86c cam and 8.7 to 1 compr. He has run his distributor locked out with 32 degrees timing at idle and all thru the rpm range. Its always at 32. The car drives best this way and runs noticably better than with the timing set at the traditional 10 at idel and 32 full adv.
The bigger the cam and the lower the compression the more timing you can run at idle.
A motor with a near stock cam would need the timing set up lower at idle and then advance slowly to a full 32 at full advance. Thats why 009s run ok on these types of motors .

PS i`ve run zero lash on every steel pushrod motor I `ve ever built. Its the only way to go. Luckily AC.nets alum pushrods work well enough to use on most VW street motors so I steer clear of steel pushrods nowadays. The factory setting of 004" to 006" is what I use on them.

gmd · Post by **gmd** » Sun May 02, 2004 9:49 am

Actually, after posting this morning I went out and re-set my valves to .004. I haven't driven the car yet, so I don't know what effect (if any) it's going to have on my problems. I've always set mine at .002, which is what the guy who built the engine did before I owned the car. It's weird, though, in the last week four different people (including rcb78) have recommended either .004 or .006 valve lash on my engine. People seem to be equally divided on the subject when it comes to chromolly pushrods. It seems my engine tends to run worse after it's been driven hard for a while, and I'm thinking that it may be in part due to the valves being too tight. Theoretically after getting hot the metal expands, making the valve clearance too tight, compression changes and the engine runs poorly. I guess the only way to find out if that's the case is to try different valve clearances...

Mark H · Post by **Mark H** » Sun May 02, 2004 10:12 am

gmd wrote:Actually, after posting this morning I went out and re-set my valves to .004. I haven't driven the car yet, so I don't know what effect (if any) it's going to have on my problems. I've always set mine at .002, which is what the guy who built the engine did before I owned the car. It's weird, though, in the last week four different people (including rcb78) have recommended either .004 or .006 valve lash on my engine. People seem to be equally divided on the subject when it comes to chromolly pushrods. It seems my engine tends to run worse after it's been driven hard for a while, and I'm thinking that it may be in part due to the valves being too tight. Theoretically after getting hot the metal expands, making the valve clearance too tight, compression changes and the engine runs poorly. I guess the only way to find out if that's the case is to try different valve clearances...

Only on the Internet are People devided about running zero lash on steel pushrods. Thats because the internet is the great missinformation collection of all time. Anyone who sounds like they know what they are talking about is an expert

I`ve built tons of high mile /high perf motors since the 70s and running anything but zero is just stupid.
Set your valves at zero or .010" lash will make no difference at all on how your car runs unless you have an overactive imagination. But it will make tons of extra noise if you set then at .010" .
Steel pushrods barely expand at all from heat when compared to aluminum.

If your motor runs bad after its hot then it may be too hot. Or the jetting may not be right for a normal temp running condition. Too lean maybe. Good luck

rcb78 · Post by **rcb78** » Sun May 02, 2004 10:12 am

The reason I stopped doing 'zero' is because my valves kept developing small leaks after awhile. Went to .004" and the problem went away, no other changes. I noticed right away that the engine idled and ran much smoother at .004" for the first few minutes each morning. I think that for engines that don't see much use (weekend warriors) it's not a big deal. But I drive every single day, often over 50 miles per day. Little stuff adds up really quick when you log that many miles. I average between 15k and 20k per year depending on where the job site is.
I guess the bottom line is that it's different for everyone, this is what it was like for me. --Ryan