total seal not seating and reusing/trying again

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jim martin
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total seal not seating and reusing/trying again

Postby jim martin » Sun Apr 25, 2004 8:25 pm

motor was run for 3 months on weekends and now its out and the top end is off for some spring upgrades as well as too inspect a ring seating issue.
well i was right my total seal gapless 2nd ring is still brown which tells me its been sliding up and down and doing nothing.well this is one thing i overlooked during assembley was cylinder hone/grit.i measured piston too cylinder clearance and all the ring gaps but installed the pistons/rings into a stock cima barrle ,no prep !!!
after taking too total seal they told me no problem just give the barrels 4-6 passes with a 240 grit three finger hone and reuse all rings.
whats everones thought on this ? are the rings ok too try again?or should i toss the whole set and by a new set of any brand? cima/dykes etc? and go again?
any thoughts ??
now i'm ring shy
Last edited by jim martin on Mon Apr 26, 2004 9:04 am, edited 2 times in total.
Bruce2
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Postby Bruce2 » Mon Apr 26, 2004 3:25 am

It seems to make sense that you could re-use them with freshly honed cylinders. The rough surface will break them in. Did you see the link I posted on the CLF about how to break-in your rings? Here it is:

http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

A new rough surface and this procedure should do the trick.

I've got an engine that suffered the same problem. I'll be doing both to it.
Mugsy
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Postby Mugsy » Mon Apr 26, 2004 10:23 am

How did you break in your engine? Just out of curiosity.

Thanks,
Andy
jim martin
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Postby jim martin » Mon Apr 26, 2004 11:58 am

yes bruce i read the article ,i could do this now as my cam is well broken in at this point.
break in was on a test stand-25 min at 2500 rpm /oil dumped
another 25 min at 2500 rpm / oil dumped
engine into car ,ran it worked on idle ant timing and drove out too canadian clasic weekend at coquitlam -which was a little city and alot of highway was on and off throttle all the time.
should have been ok
Bruce2
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Postby Bruce2 » Mon Apr 26, 2004 1:46 pm

According to that motorcycle guy that's why your rings didn't seat.

When I re-ring my car, I'm gonna run the crap out of it.
Mugsy
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Postby Mugsy » Mon Apr 26, 2004 2:18 pm

According to the motorcycle guy, you're just supposed to drive your car as soon as the engine is in....maybe he's used to roller drivetrains where you don't have to break in the cam/lifters first?

Andy
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Tom Simon
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Postby Tom Simon » Mon Apr 26, 2004 2:25 pm

Hey Bruce, that is a good link. The guy put into words what a lot of guys have been doing for many years, break it in with a load on it! He does a great job of expalining why he thinks that to be a good method.

Without giving too much away, I was crewing for a friend in Phoenix. We had the some issues and evidence that ponted to a ring seating probelm. That information from that link was rattling around in the back of my head while trouble shooting the thing... I suspect the 3-4 rings never seated... I believe my friend is going to try the hone-and-go approach as well. You should be reading about the whole experience in an upcoming issue of VW Trends.

...So this begs the question, "anyone ever heard of the Bonaime (scouring powder) ring seating method?"
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Tom Notch
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Postby Tom Notch » Mon Apr 26, 2004 3:06 pm

Yup, old, old, old trick told to me by my dad.

Tom Simon wrote:...So this begs the question, "anyone ever heard of the Bonaime (scouring powder) ring seating method?"
Tom

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jim martin
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Postby jim martin » Mon Apr 26, 2004 3:07 pm

tom what type of rings was your friend using?
-total seal tells me too break in there rings you need HEAT AND LOAD
and should take no more than a few hours.
i will have too measure across the rings as too get a idea of tension/demension ,i see that the total seal ring when i place it overtop the original 2nd ring is a fair amount smaller.not sure if this has any effect
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Honda's Killer
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Postby Honda's Killer » Mon Apr 26, 2004 3:18 pm

If I remember right the Bonaime thing dates back to Chevy dealerships. Chevy went to a different kind of ring that never sealed. They told the dealer to put some Bonaime right down the carb. Sure enough they sealed
CompTurbo.com, Lucas Oil, Pacific Customs,
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Stripped66
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Postby Stripped66 » Mon Apr 26, 2004 4:31 pm

What are you running as a top ring? I've heard rumors of TS top rings sealing too well and not allowing enough of the gasses back to the 2nd ring to push it out towards the cylinder...but again, might just be rumors...
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Tom Simon
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Postby Tom Simon » Tue Apr 27, 2004 1:49 pm

jim martin wrote:tom what type of rings was your friend using?


he was using a Total Seal gapless second ring, I'm pretty sure a plain Weisco top ring

if you haven't looked at that link, do yourself a favor and give it a read. pretty enlightening to say the least.
Mugsy
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Postby Mugsy » Tue Apr 27, 2004 2:42 pm

Yes, but do you think its applicable to engines with convential valvetrains(e.g. not roller rockers, etc.)? If the window to break in the rings really well is the first 20 minutes, and the majority of us VW guys use the first 20 minutes breaking in the cam/lifters, then we're losing a good ring seat and potential power, right?

Thanks,
Andy
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Billyisgr8
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Postby Billyisgr8 » Tue Apr 27, 2004 2:46 pm

Once your motor is warmed up stomp on it to 6000 rpm then let off the gas and let the compresion slow the car down, do this 10 times and you should be golden then. Definitly re-hone the cylinders though

Kevin
bhowden
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Postby bhowden » Tue Apr 27, 2004 3:10 pm

Tom Notch wrote:Yup, old, old, old trick told to me by my dad.

Tom Simon wrote:...So this begs the question, "anyone ever heard of the Bonaime (scouring powder) ring seating method?"


From everything I have heard, this is one of the folk lore stories that won't die. I heard that it was Catapiller diesel that started it and shortly thereafter, tried to stop it as it ruins all bearing and friction surfaces in the motor. From what I understand, the story was way easier to start than to stop (evidenced by people still spreading the story). It sounds so logical and you want it to work so you believe it. I heard it from my father who then tried it in a 64 beetle. The motor was totally destroyed within 5000 miles. In those days, there were no cam bearings so the crank, block, valve guides, cam and followers were all shot. In this case it didn't fix the ring seal problem either but when we tore the motor down, it turned out to have the standard size rings in an oversized barrel. From painful experience I have learned that very few "cure in a can" approaches work and there is no substitute to doing a careful quality job in the first place. If it doesn't work, go back and find out what you did wrong. Given how much time we spend adding oil filters and changing the oil regularly, dumping an abrasive into your motor sounds a bit like sabotage.

A quick google search turned up a fair number of "I heard that it works" and a couple of "Don't listen to them" sites.

I know I learned my lesson and will not try it again.


Just my $.02....

Brian

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