Oil sprayers

schmleff · Post by **schmleff** » Sun Jun 10, 2007 12:46 pm

Has anyone used sprayers on the rockers and valve stems to reduce head temps?

gcorrado · Post by **gcorrado** » Sun Jun 10, 2007 5:10 pm

i'm definitely making some for my 12:1 2276. i want it to last, and i'm using ratio rockers with no through oiling up to the valve. (most ratio rockers i've seen, even those with pressure oiling to the bushing, have no provision for getting oil up to the valves other than "splash".) a steady trickle of oil over the springs, stems, and upper head might do a lot to extend the longevity of springs and heads i these set ups.

so anyway, i ask about them periodically, but don't seem to get much response. i can share what i HAVE dug up over the years:

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back in 2003, Joe Sumen was talking about offering a kit to put squirters in valve covers. i don't think it ever happened.
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic ... 82&start=1

years later, in that same thread "The Method" was talking about maybe using squirters from Lycoming aircraft engine and tapping them into the head. I don't know if he actually did it in the end.

If you want people who've actually DONE IT, well first Jake Raby has stated more than once on these forums that he has installed (and spends time carefully aiming) oil squirters in type4 heads when he's running ratio rockers, but in all the many postings i've never seen ANY pictures.
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=71244

Jeff from Bugformance has them in his supercar.
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=109814
there's a spray bar in each rocker cover of his scat split heads. no picts of the actual squirters are up, but you can see the LINES going into the valve covers in this pict... i think he said he did it with copper tubing and a 20 thou drill.

Britain Smith has them in a turbo Type 4 in his Porsche 912
http://britainsmith.com/Porsche/912Project/TurboMotor/
He brazed a spray bar into stock steel rocker cover. (THIS IS THE ONLY SYSTEM I'VE ACTUALLY SEEN PICTS OF, and even still these picts were taken before the actual oiling holes were drilled.)

when i asked around for details about the spray bar idea last december, axam48ida said he used to do something like this for circle track racing on autocraft valve covers... but again no picts.
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=106517

i'm convinced the spray bar is a sound idea. you can get chevy valve covers with internal spray bars in this style right off the shelf from Comp Cams, but of course there's nothing like it in the VW world.

sooo.. i'm going to go with some kind of a spray bar set up in my CSP valve covers. i'm thinking of positioning the bar along the top wall of the cover, so that it's point blank range onto the springs and valve stem for each valve, and then, as the valve it depressed it'll get the rocker tip and lash cap.

if anyone has any input on this idea, know of other examples, or hase more details about these examples... PLEASE DO CHIME IN!

-g

nsracing · Post by **nsracing** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 4:38 am

Who needs squirters?

I will be machining some and offering the service shortly.

What application? Type I or Type IV?

The nipples can be threaded or just hard-pressed. Or you can do in-block sytle...using the prominent part of the head or block and drill a oil line in there. The "sprayer" can be end-milled.

schmleff · Post by **schmleff** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 5:50 am

Type 1.

I am curious about the squirters that could mount into the top of the head or into a finned valve cover. I wonder if a bath of oil on and around the exhaust valve would yield cooler operating temps and valve life.

nsracing · Post by **nsracing** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 5:54 am

schmleff wrote:Type 1.

I am curious about the squirters that could mount into the top of the head or into a finned valve cover. I wonder if a bath of oil on and around the exhaust valve would yield cooler operating temps and valve life.

During running, the valve cover area is actually halfway up in oil bath. Believe it!

I like the squirters in the case for the rods and cam and behind the pistons.

The rockers squirters? Might be just bling, but it has been made before.

schmleff · Post by **schmleff** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 6:36 am

Half full or half empty

That much oil really? If its that full on both sides thats about a quart of oil sitting up there. How did you determine this?

nsracing · Post by **nsracing** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 6:58 am

schmleff wrote:Half full or half empty

That much oil really? If its that full on both sides thats about a quart of oil sitting up there. How did you determine this?

This is NOT new info. It is like that from factory.

Muffler MIke has a nice pic/video of it. He made a bail with a window.
See for yourself. Part throttle and it is a flood of oil in there.

The pic is somewhere on this site. or MIke's webpage.

Believe it!

schmleff · Post by **schmleff** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 7:01 am

cool, I will have to track that down.

schmleff · Post by **schmleff** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 7:57 am

I can't find the video or picts, but I did find some text on the issue.

From what I read, it only happens on one side, the side that the crank slings oil up the pushrod tubes.

I would really like to see that video. I want to know if the oil sloshes up as high as the valves.

gcorrado · Post by **gcorrado** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 9:34 am

i've seen the video. it's RPM dependent, and at highway RPMs the oil level is below the springs even on the 3 4 side. the 1 2 side is presumably much drier, though there was no video of this posted. it's also going to depend on how high the oil level is in the sump, and how sloppy your clearances are. overfilled sumps and loose clearances will hold more oil in the 3 4 cover.

so, there will be splash, particularly on the 3 4 side at high RPM. but i'm not going to rely on that. VW went to some trouble to design a very clever system of getting some oil UP to the valve tips through the stock rocker arms. with ratio rockers like those from scat or CB or autocraft, you have DELETED that oiling and now depend ONLY on splash to get oil up to the springs and valve tips. for drag racing this is fine. might even be good enough for most people on a very hot street motor...

but given that i've raised the bar on nearly every other aspect of the motor, and want to run my high compression, big cam, and double springs ALL DAY - well it seems like i should deliver MORE oil to the springs than a stock motor, not LESS. Jake Raby won't run ratio rockers in his motors without oil valve squirters to make up for the lost supply, and axam48ida said he both reduced his head temps and extended the life of his parts. so, i'm with them, and am committed to some kind of oil spray on the springs and valve. i don't think it needs to be a huge volume, and a LOT will flow through a very small hole, but it's just the mechanics of getting the oil where you want it.

so, NSR. i'm type 1, already have under piston squirters in my case, and am looking to add oil to the valves preferably through the cover, not the head. what design did you have in mind. (cause i haven't started fabbing yet, and might still be willing to farm this out.)

schmleff · Post by **schmleff** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 9:49 am

When you say ratio rockers what do you mean? I have a set of scat 1.25 rockers and they still have all of the necessary holes to provide oil to the area.

Did jake quantify his "lower head temps"? Is it 5 degrees or 50?

mat3833 · Post by **mat3833** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:06 am

schmleff wrote: Did jake quantify his "lower head temps"? Is it 5 degrees or 50?

i wouldnt care if it was 10 or 100 degrees, it is still lower head temps. if i remember correctly i think he found that his temps were 25-30 degrees cooler. possibly more, i read about that awhile back and after reading all of his stuff your brain is kindof like mush...

Matt

gcorrado · Post by **gcorrado** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:32 am

schmleff wrote:When you say ratio rockers what do you mean? I have a set of scat 1.25 rockers and they still have all of the necessary holes to provide oil to the area.

I apologize, I should have been more specific. Nearly all rockers out there for the VW are "ratio" of some sort or the other. I've seen 1.1:1, 1.25:1, 1.3:1, 1.4:1, 1.5:1, 1.54:1.

Scat offers two lines of rockers:
Pro-Street 707 in either 1.1:1 or 1.25:1.
Pro-Comp 765 in either 1.25:1 or 1.4:1.

The Pro-Streets have the adjusting screw at the valve end, and have stock style oiling. The Pro-Comps however have the adjuster at the pushrod end, and have no oiling up to the valve.

So if you have a 1.25:1 rocker, you might or might not have oiling depending on the model. I don't know of any rocker 1.3:1 or longer that preserves valve oiling. Maybe Berg made some some once? Anybody know?

If you have Pro-Streets at 1.25:1, then you have less to worry about than I do with my Pro-Comps at 1.4:1...

gcorrado · Post by **gcorrado** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:38 am

mat3833 wrote:
schmleff wrote: Did jake quantify his "lower head temps"? Is it 5 degrees or 50?
i wouldnt care if it was 10 or 100 degrees, it is still lower head temps. if i remember correctly i think he found that his temps were 25-30 degrees cooler.

Here here! I don't remember any numbers that Jake put on it, and axam48ida didn't give a number, only said "definitely"... but at 12:1 CR on 91 octane, I'll take every extra degree of head temp reduction I can get.

Actually, more than temp at the head overall, I'm hoping to keep the springs cool. Changing and checking them is such a pain, the longer I can keep them strong the bettter!

schmleff · Post by **schmleff** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:15 pm

Ever heard of Bob Hoover? Here are some things he has to say about getting more oil to the top of the heads.

http://bobhooversblog.blogspot.com/sear ... results=10