>>>actually... I think if you read further up he states that it is not semi-hemi. I might be confused though<<<
aaron, the semi-hemi engine drd is referring to is not the allen weiss engine.
and i have never claimed that allen ran semi-hemi heads, either... i had dinner with him on saturday nite in bakersfield, i know what he runs.
and guess what, mike lawless was there, and if i remember correctly, his motor also runs advanced timing... 12.32 quartermile in a full-weight ghia with dot tires... but no semi-hemi, lol.
there is a truth here for those intelligent enuf to see it... the weiss motor, jakes high c.r. claims, and those new factory vw heads that no one on this forum has ever seen before all have one thing in common.
dan
oceanstreetvideo.com
2110 Compression Ratio Suggestions
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JohnConnolly
- Posts: 3336
- Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2000 12:01 am
2110 Compression Ratio Suggestions
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
I'm finally opening my mind to new ideas?
I'm finally opening my mind to new ideas?
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Steve Arndt
- Posts: 7404
- Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2001 12:01 am
2110 Compression Ratio Suggestions
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by danimal:
<B>>>>actually... I think if you read further up he states that it is not semi-hemi. I might be confused though<<<
aaron, the semi-hemi engine drd is referring to is not the allen weiss engine.
and i have never claimed that allen ran semi-hemi heads, either... i had dinner with him on saturday nite in bakersfield, i know what he runs.
and guess what, mike lawless was there, and if i remember correctly, his motor also runs advanced timing... 12.32 quartermile in a full-weight ghia with dot tires... but no semi-hemi, lol.
there is a truth here for those intelligent enuf to see it... the weiss motor, jakes high c.r. claims, and those new factory vw heads that no one on this forum has ever seen before all have one thing in common.
dan
oceanstreetvideo.com</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Am I missing something here? I think you just proved who is right.
Did you ask what type of heads were used on DRD's 215 horse motor? They could be semi hemi cut superflows? I have a friend with a 250 horse 91 octane B18C Honda in Town. You can't draw conclusions from these facts.
I run 91 octane at best, and often 86 octane fuel when I'm out driving through small Idaho towns while baja buggin'. That is why I run 26 degrees total advance at the moment (soon it will have an ECU to handle ignition timing requirements (since I have three sitting on my workbench)).
You must match the ignition timing to what the engine needs. Minimum Timing for Best Torque. Not everyone has the equipment to do this, so we do the best we can with the tools we have. There is a fine balance between too much dynamic compression leading to overly retarded timing VS. overly advanced timing and low compression. You will see different curves on a dyno printout for each. You would have to maximize each and figure out the best point. I'm just one step closer to being there than you are.
It is nice to know that Allen runs high compression, conventional chambers, and that his car runs fast in the quarter mile! It would be lame if he had a low compression engine that cost a million dollars (special big bore, Haltech, FK87) and ran slow as hell like Berg's red car at Sac, the pinacle of low compression theory(religion?).
Steve
[This message has been edited by Steve Arndt (edited 11-20-2001).]
[This message has been edited by Steve Arndt (edited 11-20-2001).]
<B>>>>actually... I think if you read further up he states that it is not semi-hemi. I might be confused though<<<
aaron, the semi-hemi engine drd is referring to is not the allen weiss engine.
and i have never claimed that allen ran semi-hemi heads, either... i had dinner with him on saturday nite in bakersfield, i know what he runs.
and guess what, mike lawless was there, and if i remember correctly, his motor also runs advanced timing... 12.32 quartermile in a full-weight ghia with dot tires... but no semi-hemi, lol.
there is a truth here for those intelligent enuf to see it... the weiss motor, jakes high c.r. claims, and those new factory vw heads that no one on this forum has ever seen before all have one thing in common.
dan
oceanstreetvideo.com</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Am I missing something here? I think you just proved who is right.
Did you ask what type of heads were used on DRD's 215 horse motor? They could be semi hemi cut superflows? I have a friend with a 250 horse 91 octane B18C Honda in Town. You can't draw conclusions from these facts.
I run 91 octane at best, and often 86 octane fuel when I'm out driving through small Idaho towns while baja buggin'. That is why I run 26 degrees total advance at the moment (soon it will have an ECU to handle ignition timing requirements (since I have three sitting on my workbench)).
You must match the ignition timing to what the engine needs. Minimum Timing for Best Torque. Not everyone has the equipment to do this, so we do the best we can with the tools we have. There is a fine balance between too much dynamic compression leading to overly retarded timing VS. overly advanced timing and low compression. You will see different curves on a dyno printout for each. You would have to maximize each and figure out the best point. I'm just one step closer to being there than you are.
It is nice to know that Allen runs high compression, conventional chambers, and that his car runs fast in the quarter mile! It would be lame if he had a low compression engine that cost a million dollars (special big bore, Haltech, FK87) and ran slow as hell like Berg's red car at Sac, the pinacle of low compression theory(religion?).
Steve
[This message has been edited by Steve Arndt (edited 11-20-2001).]
[This message has been edited by Steve Arndt (edited 11-20-2001).]
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Steve Arndt
- Posts: 7404
- Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2001 12:01 am
2110 Compression Ratio Suggestions
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by danimal:
<B>>>>
steve, before you start screwing around with that engine, how about running a few tanks of race gas thru it, with the timing set at 30-32 degrees... i'd like to know if that engine reaches it's optimal h.p. when there is enuf octane to feed the compression...
dan
oceanstreetvideo.com </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Dan, the new Honda Civic engine runs at 27 degrees peak total advance under load. You should contact Honda to correct them on their engineering and tuning specs. They are running 5 degrees retarded and don't even know it!
Steve
<B>>>>
steve, before you start screwing around with that engine, how about running a few tanks of race gas thru it, with the timing set at 30-32 degrees... i'd like to know if that engine reaches it's optimal h.p. when there is enuf octane to feed the compression...
dan
oceanstreetvideo.com </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Dan, the new Honda Civic engine runs at 27 degrees peak total advance under load. You should contact Honda to correct them on their engineering and tuning specs. They are running 5 degrees retarded and don't even know it!
Steve
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MASSIVE TYPE IV
- Posts: 20132
- Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2000 12:01 am
2110 Compression Ratio Suggestions
The ONLY common things I have seen here is how consistantly DAN can cause trouble.
I think its what makes him tick, so to stop adding fuel to his low combustion, I think we should just agree with him.....
------------------
Jake Raby
Raby's Aircooled Technology
www.aircooledtechnology.com
I think its what makes him tick, so to stop adding fuel to his low combustion, I think we should just agree with him.....
------------------
Jake Raby
Raby's Aircooled Technology
www.aircooledtechnology.com
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Steve Arndt
- Posts: 7404
- Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2001 12:01 am
2110 Compression Ratio Suggestions
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MASSIVE TYPE IV:
<B>The ONLY common things I have seen here is how consistantly DAN can cause trouble.
I think its what makes him tick, so to stop adding fuel to his low combustion, I think we should just agree with him.....
</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm enjoying the debate myself when it is O/T (on topic).
<B>The ONLY common things I have seen here is how consistantly DAN can cause trouble.
I think its what makes him tick, so to stop adding fuel to his low combustion, I think we should just agree with him.....
</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm enjoying the debate myself when it is O/T (on topic).
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Tom Perso
- Posts: 1581
- Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2000 12:01 am
2110 Compression Ratio Suggestions
I think this is great. Lots of discussion about a hot topic with a lot of opinions.
When it comes to opinions, there is one thing that comes to the surface. Hard facts with data. And when I mean data, I'm not talking about "x-sized motor running y-compression running z-times" I want to hear WHY running low compression with S/H heads is a good thing.
From my other post (that no one has replied to) it proves the low C/R incorrect.
The only person I haven't seen hard numbers from is Dan. Just cause we read some book with a blue cover doesn't mean we know everything. I'm a humble guy, I'll admit defeat and failure. But you'd better have a damned good case as of why.
Steve, I think you are proving a good point and you have the data to back it up. Jake, get that Dyno running and let's see what C/R effects a motor.
I've seen more cases of bumping up comression has better results than not.
I'm not convinced of lower C/R. Please, someone, prove me wrong. But, with my intuition and education, I don't see that happening (I'm an ME-in-training, BTW).
Steve's an ME, John's a ME/EE (whoh!) and Jake has more experience than a lot of folks here.
Dan, what do you have to say for yourself?
But, to get back to topic, it sounds like "yeahmag" has a pretty good combo going. It should run pretty damned good.
Let's see the facts from the "other" side. I'm not convinced.
Tom http://www.qtm.net/~persoj
When it comes to opinions, there is one thing that comes to the surface. Hard facts with data. And when I mean data, I'm not talking about "x-sized motor running y-compression running z-times" I want to hear WHY running low compression with S/H heads is a good thing.
From my other post (that no one has replied to) it proves the low C/R incorrect.
The only person I haven't seen hard numbers from is Dan. Just cause we read some book with a blue cover doesn't mean we know everything. I'm a humble guy, I'll admit defeat and failure. But you'd better have a damned good case as of why.
Steve, I think you are proving a good point and you have the data to back it up. Jake, get that Dyno running and let's see what C/R effects a motor.
I've seen more cases of bumping up comression has better results than not.
I'm not convinced of lower C/R. Please, someone, prove me wrong. But, with my intuition and education, I don't see that happening (I'm an ME-in-training, BTW).
Steve's an ME, John's a ME/EE (whoh!) and Jake has more experience than a lot of folks here.
Dan, what do you have to say for yourself?
But, to get back to topic, it sounds like "yeahmag" has a pretty good combo going. It should run pretty damned good.
Let's see the facts from the "other" side. I'm not convinced.
Tom http://www.qtm.net/~persoj
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Steve Arndt
- Posts: 7404
- Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2001 12:01 am
2110 Compression Ratio Suggestions
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tom Perso:
<B>
I'm not convinced of lower C/R. Please, someone, prove me wrong. But, with my intuition and education, I don't see that happening (I'm an ME-in-training, BTW).
Steve's an ME,
Tom http://www.qtm.net/~persoj
</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm only an ME in training. I have a few more years before I graduate (tons of math and a lot of hair to pull out or turn grey).
Dan is actually very open minded, he just tries to pose the devils advocate here to generate debate. I have no problem with this.
Steve
<B>
I'm not convinced of lower C/R. Please, someone, prove me wrong. But, with my intuition and education, I don't see that happening (I'm an ME-in-training, BTW).
Steve's an ME,
Tom http://www.qtm.net/~persoj
</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm only an ME in training. I have a few more years before I graduate (tons of math and a lot of hair to pull out or turn grey).
Dan is actually very open minded, he just tries to pose the devils advocate here to generate debate. I have no problem with this.
Steve
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Shad Laws
- Posts: 1605
- Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2001 12:01 am
2110 Compression Ratio Suggestions
Hello-
Alright... I've never been to this forum before, but I had a few people tell me about this thread...
One BIG clarification: you CANNOT in no way, shape, or form begin to compare Berg's semi-hemi with a modern Chrysler hemi or a modern 4-valve pentroof. They are COMPLETELY different animals. I won't bother to explain them to you, as to reference them I'm sure you already are well-versed in their particular designs.
The VW uses a compact wedge. All the decades and decades of automotive research conducted by thousands of firms all over the world have shown that for OHV 2-valve configurations where the valves are parallel and slightly canted, the compact wedge is superior. It's why everyone uses it... production cars, sports cars, racing cars, etc. The semi-hemi is a poor-at-best bastardization of this design. Anyone who claims that the T1 VW engine is some magical exception to all these decades of research had better have some HEAVY papers in front of him to prove it. I know for a fact that no party present in this discussion nor any of Berg's "wonder papers" carry this sort of gravity. And, they also don't carry any results.
The semi-hemi also has no swirl consideration in it's design. Pity. I suppose that's why it's only good for ultra-low compression ratios. Getting much higher would cause detonation.
Even on a compact wedge combustion chamber, the only time 7:1 compression is even remotely appropriate is if you have some big forced induction... for normally aspirated engines, it absolutely sucks. Go back and learn how IC engines work - you'll see what I mean.
Take care,
Shad
Alright... I've never been to this forum before, but I had a few people tell me about this thread...
One BIG clarification: you CANNOT in no way, shape, or form begin to compare Berg's semi-hemi with a modern Chrysler hemi or a modern 4-valve pentroof. They are COMPLETELY different animals. I won't bother to explain them to you, as to reference them I'm sure you already are well-versed in their particular designs.
The VW uses a compact wedge. All the decades and decades of automotive research conducted by thousands of firms all over the world have shown that for OHV 2-valve configurations where the valves are parallel and slightly canted, the compact wedge is superior. It's why everyone uses it... production cars, sports cars, racing cars, etc. The semi-hemi is a poor-at-best bastardization of this design. Anyone who claims that the T1 VW engine is some magical exception to all these decades of research had better have some HEAVY papers in front of him to prove it. I know for a fact that no party present in this discussion nor any of Berg's "wonder papers" carry this sort of gravity. And, they also don't carry any results.
The semi-hemi also has no swirl consideration in it's design. Pity. I suppose that's why it's only good for ultra-low compression ratios. Getting much higher would cause detonation.
Even on a compact wedge combustion chamber, the only time 7:1 compression is even remotely appropriate is if you have some big forced induction... for normally aspirated engines, it absolutely sucks. Go back and learn how IC engines work - you'll see what I mean.
Take care,
Shad
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MASSIVE TYPE IV
- Posts: 20132
- Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2000 12:01 am
2110 Compression Ratio Suggestions
Yeah Shad!!
Hey Dan, I DARE you to argue this with SHAD..You better get the phones to dialing, and the mind to workin, because you will need all the help in the world to disprove him!
------------------
Jake Raby
Raby's Aircooled Technology
www.aircooledtechnology.com
Hey Dan, I DARE you to argue this with SHAD..You better get the phones to dialing, and the mind to workin, because you will need all the help in the world to disprove him!
------------------
Jake Raby
Raby's Aircooled Technology
www.aircooledtechnology.com