Synthetic oil question

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helowrench
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Re: Synthetic oil question

Post by helowrench » Sun Nov 24, 2013 5:34 pm

Piledriver wrote:
I'm sure there are other choices for proper zddp levels without costing a kidney, but I don't know what they are.
Is GM EOS still available?

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Re: Synthetic oil question

Post by Piledriver » Sun Nov 24, 2013 6:21 pm

helowrench wrote:
Piledriver wrote:
I'm sure there are other choices for proper zddp levels without costing a kidney, but I don't know what they are.
Is GM EOS still available?
Yes, but unless you can get it at cost it's not economically viable, the oil+EOS price ends up ~same as running AMSOIL or more, certainly more than the Shell T6, which FWIW has the lowest engine wear per the TDIClubs running UOA postings.
(I have a TDI I ~never drive, but I care)
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woodsbuggy1
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Re: Synthetic oil question

Post by woodsbuggy1 » Sun Nov 24, 2013 9:11 pm

You do realize that "synthetic oil" is a marketing term don't you? Most oils sold as synthetic are dino oil. To be advertised as synthetic an oil simply needs to me made of a grade 2 base stock or better an exhibit some similar properties to synthetic. I use oil that is advertised as a synthetic blend(although I realize that it all dino oil). There is no way that I could afford to run TRUE SYNTHETIC oil in any of my vehicles. Please do your own research and decide what works for you. I personally run Kendall 10w30 diesel oil with (don't laugh) liquid titanium. I have done oil analysis on my engines and this is what works for me. I still use Lucas break in additive for the first 2 oil changes and things have been working well for me.
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Piledriver
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Re: Synthetic oil question

Post by Piledriver » Sun Nov 24, 2013 9:30 pm

Mobil 1 at least used to be a true synthetic.
AMSOIL-same, Either G4 or G5, Mobil1 base stock was the other.

Rotella uses G3, which is made from Dino oil, but you would be hard pressed to demonstrate a performance or lifetime difference vs. G4 or G5 base stock'd oils.

Mobil1 is ~the same price or just a tiny bit higher than the Rotella T6, AMSOIL/RP etc is the outliers, mostly due to lack of volume.

They DO now sell a Royal Purple 10W30 at Walmart, but I don't know if it is flat tappet safe etc. I didn't even notice the price.

There really be an industry std marking for this.
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Re: Synthetic oil question

Post by sideshow » Sun Nov 24, 2013 9:51 pm

Piledriver wrote:...They DO now sell a Royal Purple 10W30 at Walmart, but I don't know if it is flat tappet safe etc. I didn't even notice the price....
I use RP and am very happy with it, it was everywhere ~8 a quart and SL rated...then the container changed every so slightly (the cap got bigger) and it became SN or what ever the improved crap standard. I'm fairly certain that is when great oil became liquid death grade. This happened with in the last year or so and I am still cursing because if I was able to get a decent oil 24 hours a day (important as I will not step foot inside a WM during peak hours) it didn't occur to me to purchase enough to make in through the rest of this century.
Yeah some may call it overkill, but you can't have too much overkill.

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Re: Synthetic oil question

Post by Piledriver » Sun Nov 24, 2013 10:09 pm

Oddly, API SN takes flat tappet lifters into account to some extent.
(Methinks SM zddp levels were killing things other than old VWs )

If it doesn't wear the API "starburst" logo
or
if the hot oil weight is >30
or
If the bottle says "heavy duty"

It can be SM or SN and still have 1500+ PPM zinc etc. (see VR-1 20W-50)

That's why Castrol GTX hurt so much---
it was exempt on all accouts but went to 800ppm anyway.

Ir would be worth bugging Royal Purple tech support to find out.
I suspect they would tell.
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Re: Synthetic oil question

Post by volksbugly » Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:31 am

Not sure if my post got lost...

http://www.drivenracingoil.com/dro/dt50 ... 5w-50html/

Its synthetic specifically made for aircooled...
I can't download the data sheet, but if I remember correctly it has a higher operating temperature.

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Re: Synthetic oil question

Post by helowrench » Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:45 am

volksbugly wrote:Not sure if my post got lost...

http://www.drivenracingoil.com/dro/dt50 ... 5w-50html/

Its synthetic specifically made for aircooled...
I can't download the data sheet, but if I remember correctly it has a higher operating temperature.
That is a nice option for non daily drivers, or people who can plan ahead/ stockpile.

Unfortunately for me, my Ghia is the get-to-woirk car every day, and I need an oil that I can get anytime, and anywhere.
I use the Rotella Synthetic, as it is available at WallWorld, Aholezone, and OSmeilley's, or even any truck stop. That means that pretty much any place and time that I realise I need a quart, I can have it quickly.

Now, if Rotella was to change the formula, or retail outlets stopped carrying it, then I would be back to the drawing board.

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Re: Synthetic oil question

Post by Piledriver » Sat Jul 15, 2017 2:08 am

Further required reading, guts the whole ZDDP % thing.
https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/2013/0 ... t-ranking/

The synthetic QS ultimate durability (5W30) or syn valvoline max life is probably the best bang for the buck of anything commonly available, maxlife exists in 10W40 if you need it.
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Re: Synthetic oil question

Post by Marc » Sat Jul 15, 2017 1:42 pm

Piledriver wrote:
Sat Jul 15, 2017 2:08 am
...guts the whole ZDDP % thing...
Too set in my ways to change at this stage in life (must be that old dog/new tricks thang).

I'll take decades of real-world experience in actual ACVW engines over lab-rig testing, no matter how convincing it appears on paper. If the need for an adequate ZDDP package in a flat-tappet engine is a "myth", it's one with a whole helluva lot of empirical evidence to support it. This fellow's not going to help you rebuild your engine if/when he's proven wrong :roll:

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Re: Synthetic oil question

Post by Piledriver » Sat Jul 15, 2017 3:02 pm

The old ZDDP results always seemed to be odd, his data appears more fact based and explains far more that the original testing that Jake did , and even that strongly showed ZDDP was not the whole story, as some high ZDDP oils "had issues", which in hindsight mostly debunked the whole "ZDDP is the fix" thing right there if you think about it.

This fellows testing more than likely shows the real story, better anyway.

If you are still concerned about ZDDP there are several good high zinc oils near the top of the list.
Most of them are not though, including my old fave Rotella T6 or Brad Penns finest, marginal performance at best.

They were good enough, but I'm paying far less $ for something with far better results in independent testing.

I have been running 800 ppm 5W30 QS Ultimate Durability for about 15 K miles, dual springs, 80 miles a day.
Haven't needed to adjust my valves when checked twice over that period.
(mind, I haven't needed to actually adjust the valves in ~50K running Rotella T6 either, just check on oil change)

I did put the T4 cooler back in tho, and an in the midst or reworking my rear engine mounts to clear the AC belt better (as well as a CB DS pump), along with putting in a slightly beefed up automatic for future... upgrades....

That oil is very near the top of the list BTW, with excellent very hot oil performance as well.
~Cheap (probably a G3 "syn", but its the additive package that matters most..) and available ~anywhere.
I still ran it to 12K miles per the factory spec, adding about 3 quarts in that mileage.
(currently run about 5" Hg case vacuum at cruise, stays nice and clean, and dry)
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Re: Synthetic oil question

Post by TJ530 » Wed Jul 19, 2017 6:33 pm

I wrote Royal Purple an email after having a spirited discussion about the myths of synthetic oil on SBO and asked them if their products are compatible with aircooled engines and got this as a response: (obviously they are selling their product)

Premium full synthetic engine oils will typically allow your engine (air-cooled or liquid-cooled) to have cooler operating oil temperatures compared to a conventional oil. Using a premium full synthetic engine oils will also leave an engine cleaner, and can help in extending the life of an engine. Our Royal Purple premium full synthetic engine oils are great choices for air cooled engines like these VW engines that you have.
Our current Royal Purple SAE/API-licensed oils are appropriate for roller and stock, non-performance flat tappet valve trains. The SAE series would be OK to use in your stock street driven air cooled VW engine.
If you would like a higher level of protection, or you have a performance work done to the engine you would be better suited with and engine oil from our HPS or XPR engine oils. The HPS and XPR series are formulated with a higher concentration of the zinc/phosphorous anti-wear additive and are suitable for both roller and flat tappet valve trains (stock or performance). These oils also contain our proprietary Synerlec additive technology.
For daily driver duty and recreational use (spirited driving, occasional racing, etc.), the Royal Purple HPS product line will be the best choice in terms of best bang for your buck factor. For a dedicated competition vehicle, or if you just want the absolute best performance and protection, the Royal Purple XPR engine oils are the best choice

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Re: Synthetic oil question

Post by Jadewombat » Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:04 pm

I remember back in the mid-90s when discussions like this were taking place on message boards. Well over 90% of the people on there were as sure as the sun was coming up tomorrow that synthetic oil in VW trans. is good, but the in motor bad because synthetic doesn't carry away the latent heat.

The last post to that thread was an engineer who worked for Redline Synthetic. He posted pages and pages of numbers (and proof really) that synthetic carried away latent heat than the dino stuff far better. No one responded after that.

And that was well over 20 years ago.

But I'm sure some still believe Paul McCartney was replaced by a look alike, we never landed on the moon, and Ether of Things (EoT--hey, I just made that up) explains a lot of stuff we still can't quite figure out after all this time. :oops:

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