CB Performance Dry Sump Pump Installation

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turbobaja
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Re: CB Performance Dry Sump Pump Installation

Post by turbobaja » Wed Oct 08, 2014 9:22 am

Just for a comparison, I'm running -10 AN hose and fittings through a 5/8" ball valve from my tank to the pump inlet. All other lines and fittings are -8 AN. I run 8-9 qts of oil and have an in-line T-stat controlling flow to a Setrab cooler in my rear spoiler. CB Aluminum case, doghouse cooler and Scat shroud. My baja is VERY heavy, about 2,400lbs w/out fuel or people inside. Fully loaded pulling a small trailer I'm well over 3,000 lbs on the road with more wind resistance than just about anything. I can pull mountain passes at 75mph in 80-90F ambient temps and the oil temp rarely gets over 200F. That's roughly 3,600-3,700 rpm with 2-3 psi boost for miles and miles. The pump works quite well.
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Re: CB Performance Dry Sump Pump Installation

Post by Devastator » Thu Oct 09, 2014 5:50 pm

The Accusump uses the stock oil pump instead of a "dual" pump, right?
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Re: CB Performance Dry Sump Pump Installation

Post by Steve Arndt » Thu Oct 09, 2014 6:35 pm

accusump;
It Tees in to the high pressure side of the oil circuit. It has a bladder and air chamber to act as an accumulator just like a pressure tank on a well.
I ran one for many years. It did it's job. Then it starting leaking, solenoid hanging up, etc. A general PITA for a daily use car.

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Re: CB Performance Dry Sump Pump Installation

Post by Devastator » Fri Oct 10, 2014 4:05 pm

Thanks for the well analogy Steve. I have a pressure pump and tank on my well. :)
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Re: CB Performance Dry Sump Pump Installation

Post by JWP » Wed Oct 07, 2015 1:03 pm

In fear of stirring up some poo, I thought i'd comment on this. I'm curious if Frank ever came up with his switch for the warning light. My idea to solve this is to mount a generic horn button such the valve acts on it in a way to open the circuit to the coil when the valve is closed. My thought is to have the switch positioned so it has to be depressed to open the valve and the valve lever holds it depressed (closed circuit) and as soon as you close the valve the button releases thus opening the circuit.

I've got my eye on a cylindrical tank that I would likely mount where Frank has shown his to be mounted. It likely wouldn't be too hard to put the valve into the tank and this bracket as part of the mounting system so one could reach it from the driver seat.
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Dan Dryden
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Re: CB Performance Dry Sump Pump Installation

Post by Dan Dryden » Thu Oct 15, 2015 6:16 pm

I've read this thread with interest because I am of the mindset that I need to switch to a DS oil system after killing 2 turbo's through possible oil starvation. (High speed cornering).

The blurb on CB's website comes close to having you believe that you can simply swap their DS pump into your engine, add a tank and cooler (if you don't already run an external cooler) and away you go, driving off into the sunset!

I ran a search and found this thread in the hope that it would answer a few of my questions but it only seems to have raised more:

- I currently run a turbo oil return to my deep sump. Do have to lose my deep sump or can I still run with it albeit as a semi-wet system?

- Do I need to remove my oil pressure relief valves?

- Does anyone know if the pump will fit around a CB hideaway turbo exhaust?

- I'm running crank triggered EFI using Ford EDIS (UK) parts and a steel pulley which the teeth have been cut into. The sensor bracket is in the position of where the fuel pump used to reside:

Image

I'm guessing I'll have to use one of the aluminium pulley's on CB's website. Can anyone recommened a crank trigger kit which will be easy to swap to? I've been looking at The Dub Shop's power pulley crank trigger package but the sensor looks very different to my current sensor, so I'm not sure if it will be compatible with my Emerald K3 ECU.....? http://www.emeraldm3d.com/

- When running an oil thermostat, where would you have it bypassing to? I'm guessing that you would bypass the oil cooler straight back to the oil tank, but surely it would still take some time for the oil in the tank to get up to running temp? With that in mind, would it be better practice to remove the standard dog house cooler and run only an external cooler (thermostatically controlled)?

At this moment in time, I'm thinking that a swap to a DS oil system isn't going to be as simple as CB lead you to believe.

On the subject of oil shut off valve's to avoid oil drain-back: Could a manual valve like the one pictured above be used and have a battery isolator switch attached to it? No power to any of the vehicle until valve is opened. - Just need to think of something to remind yourself to shut the valve off after use! :|

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Re: CB Performance Dry Sump Pump Installation

Post by FJCamper » Thu Oct 15, 2015 10:38 pm

Hi Dan,

I'd be interested to know just what restricted your oil flow to your turbo. Am I right in supposing your turbo oil supply is from a take-off on the oil pressure switch port? I ask because the oil pressure switch port is subject to air pocketing and oil foam in a hard-run engine. A deep sump is usually very effective at keeping the oil pickup submerged, but where it can fail you is not allowing your oil to deaerate as it circulates.

A hidden benefit of the dry sump system is it pumps pure oil and not foam from the tank, and this materially changes oil temps as well. We had a poorly baffled rectangular tank that gave us ups and downs in oil temperatures until we got it upgraded with traps and baffles and our oil pressure and temp dramatically stabilized.

A turbo killer is also the circumstance where you shut off the engine before the turbo has spun down, and for a couple of seconds there is no oil pressure to the hot bearings.

You asked if the CB system can work with a deep sump, and I have no definitive answer. Instead, I can tell you what we've observed. The stock VW oil pickup tube stops about 11mm from the engine case oil plate, and the fully seated dipstick stops about 11mm from the case floor. A dipstick check on a hot running CB system engine shows only a few milimeters of oil on the bottom tip of the stick.

That means the pump keeps the oil suctioned out of the case to the very limit of the pickup depth.

The oil suction side of the pump (oil OUT) with its different size gears works at a volume ratio to the oil IN side. This ratio is worked out so well that we've never had too much or too little oil in the case when ever we've checked ... always just a few millimeters on the end of the dipstick. I don't know how well that ratio would work with a deep sump. If I ran a turbo, I'd return the oil to the case either via a tapped return in the side sump area itself or on the "universal case" to a return port bolted over the Type 3 dipstick hole.

Offhand, I know of no way to get a crank-fired ignition pulley to replaced the thin CB pulley.

We use an electrically-heated oil tank, but that is not practical for a street car. And, the garden variety oil thermostat most suppliers sell are not suited for dry sumps, because an oil thermostat can restrict oil flow, and a dry sump system requires full-flow all the time. The oil OUT must flow unimpeded to the filter, then directly through the cooler to the tank. A thermostat would bypass your oil tank until it got warm.

But all is not lost. There are oil thermostats smart enough to direct full oil flow to the tank until hot, and then detour oil to a cooler and then to the tank. Porsche has used this type of thermostat from the Type 547 4-cam engine onward, and the air-cooled 911's had them, although they are not readily adaptable to the VW CB oil system. I haven't done enough research to identify such a thermostat, but I will. I could use one.

FJC

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Re: CB Performance Dry Sump Pump Installation

Post by andy198712 » Fri Oct 16, 2015 5:36 am

so what about a sandwich plate thermostat?

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Re: CB Performance Dry Sump Pump Installation

Post by FJCamper » Fri Oct 16, 2015 9:39 am

Hi Andy,

We are building a Historic Sportscar Racing Ghia right now that could really use an oil thermostat.

I'm researching every day. Our oil supply line in and out of the pump and through out the system are -10AN (about half an inch inside diameter). The 3-gallon cylindrical oil tank is located at floor level, passenger side, where the battery would be in a street Bug. This means our oil lines are short.

For a good oil thermostat system, it should allow the oil OUT to flow through the filter, then to the thermostat, with dual routes to the cooler and oil tank. When cold, all oil should go to the tank. When hot, all oil should go to the cooler, then the tank.

The Derale-type thermostats have a safety built in that allows flow in both circuits at all times, but the flow is reduced.

All ideas are appreciated.

FJC
Last edited by FJCamper on Fri Oct 16, 2015 10:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: CB Performance Dry Sump Pump Installation

Post by turbobaja » Fri Oct 16, 2015 9:57 am

Here's a couple quick pics that might help. I had Mario @ TheDubShop sink the trigger wheel half way into the back side of the CB DS pulley (it's thin). Using his hidden crank trigger bracket/sensor, here's how it looks.

Image


I don't know if the CB hideaway is going to clear, but maybe someone who's installed one can tell based on these pics. More clearance could be had with different plumbing.

Image
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Re: CB Performance Dry Sump Pump Installation

Post by buildabiggerboxer » Fri Oct 16, 2015 12:15 pm

Hi Dan, you are right, real world dry sumping is work, lots of it, in short, either the CB pump as so well discussed in depth here, or the Sazburg pump I mentioned on FB Offer the easiest solutions provided they offer enough scope for any future up grades required, say extra feed or scavenge volume you may need, there may not be much volume left for say an upgrade to 2.1 ltr or more with a turbo, if you find you need head scavenging, a two stage pump such as Bugpack or Autocraft may be needed, but then you will need a small 5 1/4" DS pulley and suitable crank trigger gear for it, and most off the shelf exhausts won't clear the pump or feed and exit port oil fittings, the advantage is huge pumping and scavenge volume in reserve for any demands you throw at it, such a pump may well help case breathing, such is their scavenge volume. The best place for the tank is up front on the left, helping out with the light left front wheel, think braking power, you may have noticed mine is very strong on the anchors, the DS tank and the battery are biased to load the left front as they are constant, you could use the fuel tank, but it's not a constant,,,,

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Re: CB Performance Dry Sump Pump Installation

Post by buildabiggerboxer » Fri Oct 16, 2015 12:20 pm

5 1/4" dry sump pulley and ring gear. Tight.
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Re: CB Performance Dry Sump Pump Installation

Post by andy198712 » Fri Oct 16, 2015 1:27 pm

do you need a special pulley with the CB pump then? i thought you could use a normal pulley with it?

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Re: CB Performance Dry Sump Pump Installation

Post by turbobaja » Fri Oct 16, 2015 3:36 pm

andy198712 wrote:do you need a special pulley with the CB pump then? i thought you could use a normal pulley with it?
You thought wrong. The pulley I posted above is what they sell to work with their 4 gear pump. You can see how tight it fits into the small notch in the top of the cover. Of course you could possibly modify/shim something else to "work", but this setup works very well, coupled with a 356 Alt pulley the fan speed is about right.

I use all the stock oil control plungers and springs, with the DH cooler, and use this pump with a full-flow modification, so the 21mm pressure gears are pushing all the oil out to a filter before feeding the engine. 26mm scavenge stage pushes out through an external T-stat and then either to cooler, then tank or straight to the tank. "perfect" pressures and temps with Mobil 1 0W-40 and half a bottle of Comp Cams break in additive in a 9qt load. Engine is a 2110cc T-1 Turbocharged, works great!
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Re: CB Performance Dry Sump Pump Installation

Post by andy198712 » Fri Oct 16, 2015 3:56 pm

Cheers for the info :)

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