CB Performance Dry Sump Pump Installation

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FJCamper
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CB Performance Dry Sump Pump Installation

Post by FJCamper » Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:10 am

Image

Above: CB (part number #1745) pump parts laid out. From left to right, pump cover plate & gasket, outer
pump body, and gasket between inner and outer pump body.


Deep sumps work for most of us VW hot-rodders, and fabricator's ingenuity with extra head or valve cover drainoffs
help a bunch, but there comes times that only a dry sump system will keep your engine alive.

Dry sump advantages are the constant flow of cooled, defoamed oil to the engine no matter how many G's you're
pulling in the turns, no matter what oil is trapped in valve covers or wherever else. Plus, the internal engine scavenging
greatly helps evacuate crankcase pressure. Almost every oiling problem inherent in the flat-four VW can be fixed with
a dry sump system. So then why don't we see more of them?

The two big reasons are cost and complexity. But, for those of you with full-flow oil systems with coolers, you've
already got two-thirds of a dry sump system. You just need a dry sump pump, matching fan pulley, and oil tank.
The problem for most people is where to put the oil tank.

Image

Above: CB's #1745 four-gear "two-stack" pump made by Schadek, with 21mm pressure, 26mm
scavenge gears. One stack = 2 gears.


CB Performance sells what may be the least complicated dry sump pump available. It is a simple two-stack pump
which doesn't have multiple scavenge or oil pick-ups, instead using only the engine's stock internal oil pickup. "Oil Out"
(pressure) to the filter, cooler, and tank is the left side of the pump as you face it from behind the engine, and "Oil In"
(scavenge) is on the right side. More complex multi-stack pumps can scavenge from several locations in an engine.

Most of us are accustomed only to the "wet sump" pump system, with suction or scavenging occurring from the engine's
internal oil sump to feed the pressure function. In its most minimalist form (this CB design), the dry sump pump is actively
pumping from the pump body (on one "gear stack" or side) to an oil tank and sucking from that oil tank back to the pump
body on the second gear stack.

No machining, plugging of passages, or special clearancing is necessary to install the CB pump. Just slip it in as the
following photos show.

Image

Above: A thinner fan pulley that clears the pump face is necessary (CB # 1953) and uses a Continental AVX10x865
fan belt. CB #1953 also includes a bolt-in sand seal kit, shims, and a longer pulley bolt.


Image

Above: Left. New pump body installed. To the right, some general purpose grease applied and the special gasket
between the pump body and the external pump body extension.


Remove your old pump, apply a new standard gasket between the new pump body and case, and tap or slide
in the new pump body.

Image

Above: The pump's outer body in place.

Note the brass fitting on the left side. It's a 16mm x 1.5 metric thread, not an NPT thread. CB's site offers an
aluminum version (part number 1750, 16mm to AN-8) specifying they are for the #1745 pump, but the pump's
product information for the pump itself does not specify that the pump requires metric threads. Jegs.com offers
an Earl's 16mm x 1.5 to AN-10 fitting as part number #361-9919FFJ.

Image

Above: Second stack gasket in place. Notice the blue anodized AN-8 to AN-10 adapter on the
right side brass fitting.


Image

Above: Pump cover in place. We have Earl's 16m x 1.5 x AN-10 fittings on order.

Image

Above: CB's oil flow schematic. Note that no oil thermostat is included, but could be included. A thermostat
will bring the oil to operating temperature faster, a necessity for street use, as short trips would never allow
warmup of the gallons of oil held by dry sump tanks.


Image

Above: The low profile dry sump tank chosen for this project.

Most dry sump oil tanks are cylindrical and tall, or at least barrel shaped. Think of an aluminum beer keg.
A tall tank allows for the incoming oil to swirl down over baffles and defoam. But, positioning a tall tank or
even the beer keg style can be a real problem,

Just as water seeks its own level, so does oil. If the "Oil Out" fitting is higher than the oil pickup in the engine,
oil from the tank will gradually drain back into the engine. This can literally fill up an engine case with oil, to
include the cylinders, if the oil tank is high enough.

Some people have actually fitted manual valves to their "Oil Out" plumbing that must be opened before starting
the engine, and closed when not running. I myself have tried to start my engine with the carb intake rain caps
snapped in place enough times to know a valve might be overlooked.

Image

Above: By using a shorter, square oil tank that can be mounted very low in the chassis, drainback is limited. I'm
using a hole in the pan that gives access to the oil drain plug on the bottom of the tank ... which is where you drain
the oil for an oil change in a dry sump system.


Image

Above: A screened oil suction kit is fitted.

No deep sump is necessary with a dry sump system. You can regain ground clearance and save weight
by omitting the deep sump.

(end)
Last edited by FJCamper on Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: CB Performance Dry Sump Pump Installation

Post by 4agedub » Wed Jan 09, 2013 4:37 am

Do you use any sealant on the pump surfaces or only the gaskets?
On my CB pump we machined the in and output oil line holes bigger to air oil flow into the pump and out
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Re: CB Performance Dry Sump Pump Installation

Post by FJCamper » Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:56 am

Hi 4AgeDub,

I've been successful with just oiling or light greasing the oil pump gaskets on assembly -- but this is the first CB pump I've installed.

I can see where enlarging the internal holes in the pump would help increase flow. I've done that on standard pumps.

I was suprised that CB only offered the AN-8 pump inlet/outlet adapters. While I'm okay with AN-8 to a filter and cooler (very short run lines) all my previous dry sump plumbing experience has been with AN-10 and 12 size hoses.

Do you run a cylindrical oil tank? What's your experience been with oil drain-back?

FJC

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Re: CB Performance Dry Sump Pump Installation

Post by Tony Z » Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:20 am

I can give you the reason most people dont run dry sump systems on the street....
Most advertising says that you need a smaller dry sump pulley to clear the pump. CB's website makes no indication at all that their drysump pulley is the same size as stock. If they bothered to include information like that, more people would run the systems on the street. I was wanting to go dry sump in my last rebuild, but didnt want to downsize the pulley... I cant revert now because the sump extension is epoxy'd in. Maybe next time....

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Re: CB Performance Dry Sump Pump Installation

Post by 4agedub » Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:47 am

I do use a cylindrical oil tank with 3 baffle plates. The oil returns at an angle to get as most of the air out as possible. On the feed side I do have a tap to keep the engine from filling up with oil, if you do forget the tap open it actually fills up the engine until the oil runs out the dipstick.

On the return line from the engine to the tank we use a home made oil cooler... its actuall a big univeral intercooler that was modified, it offers zero restriciton and cools better than a normal setrab cooler. The oil capacity of the home made cooler is about 2 liter.
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Re: CB Performance Dry Sump Pump Installation

Post by Marc » Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:26 pm

Tony Z wrote:I can give you the reason most people dont run dry sump systems on the street....
Most advertising says that you need a smaller dry sump pulley to clear the pump. CB's website makes no indication at all that their drysump pulley is the same size as stock. If they bothered to include information like that, more people would run the systems on the street. I was wanting to go dry sump in my last rebuild, but didnt want to downsize the pulleytime...
A stock pulley uses a 9.5x905 (generator) or 11.3x912 (alternator) belt. A pulley which takes a 9.5x865 is not going to be stock diameter. All CB has done is use a pulley the same diameter as a normal "power-pulley", made thinner on the case side with a bolt-in sand seal (yecccch!) which stands further away from the case. Shims are included to push the gen/alt pulley outward to restore belt alignment.

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Re: CB Performance Dry Sump Pump Installation

Post by owdlvr » Wed Jan 09, 2013 2:18 pm

Tony Z wrote:I can give you the reason most people dont run dry sump systems on the street....
Most advertising says that you need a smaller dry sump pulley to clear the pump. CB's website makes no indication at all that their drysump pulley is the same size as stock. If they bothered to include information like that, more people would run the systems on the street. I was wanting to go dry sump in my last rebuild, but didnt want to downsize the pulley... I cant revert now because the sump extension is epoxy'd in. Maybe next time....
A smaller dry sump pulley can be combined with a Porsche 356 alternator/Gen pulley to bring the drive ratio of the fan back to *almost* stock. Somewhere I have the numbers, but I've got 27,000 street & rally miles on my drysump setup without issues. Alternatively one could go with a Serpentine belt setup from BMD Pulleys which will guarantee you're at the exact factory ratio for crank to fan rotation.

-Dave

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Re: CB Performance Dry Sump Pump Installation

Post by FJCamper » Wed Jan 09, 2013 2:22 pm

Hi again, 4AgeDub,

Where do you mount your oil temp sender? That's the one thing I'm not decided on yet.

FJC

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Re: CB Performance Dry Sump Pump Installation

Post by andy198712 » Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:29 pm

and lets talk tank capacity too

the fan speed one is easy, either 356 top pulley or a couple companies like VWSPEEDSHOP ect make dry sump serp kits

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Re: CB Performance Dry Sump Pump Installation

Post by 4agedub » Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:08 am

The oil temp sender unit is located on the oil cooler. I prefer to stay away from the engine with sender units as they always break when taking the engine out.
IMG_1105.JPG
IMG_1116.JPG
The entire oil system takes about 15lt of oil. The tank alone about 8 Liters.
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Re: CB Performance Dry Sump Pump Installation

Post by FJCamper » Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:16 pm

Image

Above: Two sensor locations (1) are the oil pressure relief valve location. (2) is right into the oil gallery, where most builders route oil return on a full-flow system.

Dry Sump Oil Temperature Sensor Location Options

There is no "right" oil temp sensor in a dry or wet sump engine. It all depends on what you want to know about some part of the oil system. For instance, temperature at the filter, oil cooler, oil tank, or even the oil temp as it enters or exits the engine case.

The most you can argue is there might be better or worse locations

And because where you place your sensor, not to mention the brand of sensor and gauge you use, determines what you report to others as your oil temperature, it makes it hard for two guys to compare oil temperature readings.

In our dry sump install, I've chosen to leave my sensor right where it is, in the oil pressure relief valve nearest the oil pump. The reasoning here is this is where oil flows from the pump to the main oil gallery, so I'm seeing something near what oil temp the bearings are receiving.

Of course, because the sensor is also picking up heat from the oil passing through the engine sump and the metal case itself, what I'm seeing is the average of all these factors.

Option 2 in the photo above shows an oil-in fitting for a full-flow system, but you can drill and tap this location for the VDO 300° F. sensor intended to replace the oil drain plug. It's an M14 x 1.5 metric thread.

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Re: CB Performance Dry Sump Pump Installation

Post by turboblue » Fri Jan 11, 2013 5:17 pm

andy198712 wrote:and lets talk tank capacity too

the fan speed one is easy, either 356 top pulley or a couple companies like VWSPEEDSHOP ect make dry sump serp kits
If you are speaking of the dry sump pulley kit pictured on their VWSS site, that is a BMD kit.
We used that kit on nearly all the dry sump off road engines we've built over the years.

Anyone heard from the guy @ BMD lately?
Their site BMD Pulleys hasn't changed in years.
I've tried to contact them for several months.
Gary

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Re: CB Performance Dry Sump Pump Installation

Post by andy198712 » Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:09 pm

turboblue wrote:
andy198712 wrote:and lets talk tank capacity too

the fan speed one is easy, either 356 top pulley or a couple companies like VWSPEEDSHOP ect make dry sump serp kits
If you are speaking of the dry sump pulley kit pictured on their VWSS site, that is a BMD kit.
We used that kit on nearly all the dry sump off road engines we've built over the years.

Anyone heard from the guy @ BMD lately?
Their site BMD Pulleys hasn't changed in years.
I've tried to contact them for several months.

they seem quite adamant that their kit fixes the short comings of the BDM kit....? ie steel hub for the pulley? but they also come in a hidden crank triggered version which is nice...

have you ever had any issues with the BDM kit long term?

cheers

Andy

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Re: CB Performance Dry Sump Pump Installation

Post by jim.fernish » Sun Jan 13, 2013 4:48 pm

FJCamper wrote: Image
(end)
What are the diminisions of your oil tank? Do you have photos with the top removed showing the oil baffles? Thanks for sharing your photos and comments :)

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Re: CB Performance Dry Sump Pump Installation

Post by turboblue » Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:42 pm

andy198712 wrote:
turboblue wrote:
andy198712 wrote:and lets talk tank capacity too

the fan speed one is easy, either 356 top pulley or a couple companies like VWSPEEDSHOP ect make dry sump serp kits
If you are speaking of the dry sump pulley kit pictured on their VWSS site, that is a BMD kit.
We used that kit on nearly all the dry sump off road engines we've built over the years.

Anyone heard from the guy @ BMD lately?
Their site BMD Pulleys hasn't changed in years.
I've tried to contact them for several months.

they seem quite adamant that their kit fixes the short comings of the BDM kit....? ie steel hub for the pulley? but they also come in a hidden crank triggered version which is nice...

have you ever had any issues with the BDM kit long term?

cheers

Andy
Their kit is a BMD kit if it is the one pictured on their site on this page:
http://www.vwspeedshop.com/home.php?cat=484

This is the dry sump kit as pictured on the BMD site.
Image
Same thing.

Had issues in the beginning with idler pulley bearings but I think they have been upgraded.

Can't get anyone from BMD to communicate with me for some reason.
I've sold 30 or so of just the dry sump kits............. :?
Gary

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2013 Polaris Ranger 4x4
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