High Energy Ignition Systems Jacobs MSD Mallory

[Scott Novak]

From those pictures, can you tell me anything to look out for, or possibly questions I should be asking. Like "is the potting stable, or is it leaking?", "As the seller, do you see any carbon tracks around the coil terminal?", stuff like that. Should I ask for better pictures from all angles?
I see an orange wire, but my eyes aren't what they used to be. Can you see a purple wire?

None of these early Energy Paks/Mileage Masters came in the EZ-Trigger configuration. Or at least I have never seen one. I can clearly see the Orange and the Purple wires in the photos. Although the Orange and Purple wires should be twisted tightly together for better noise rejection. This is a Direct Connect version which is what you want.

The Ultra Coil is a 1:85 turns ratio and will work well. Note that it has the ground wire, so it is not the undesirable 1:100 turns ratio.

The Silicone potting compound is cured so it can't leak out. It's a two part mix of resin and catalyst.

If you can get better photos of the high voltage terminal that would be great, but not always possible. There may be multiple people interested in the ignition system if the price is low and you may need to act fast.

Unless the arc tracking has badly eroded the high voltage terminal, you can sand it with ultra fine sandpaper. In fact, as a preventative measure I have been using 1500 sandpaper on the high voltage terminals just in case there is some arc tracking that I didn't see. It won't hurt anything to polish the high voltage terminal, and if there is any hint of arc tracking it will eliminate it.

Scott Novak

[Kelley]

Well, he's asking for $85 for the whole setup, including the manual. Says he had it running on an early 70's MGB. No ballast resistor though.

,,,and he's a 20 minute drive from my house.



Deal, or no deal? I guess I need to make that determination when I look it over before handing the cash over.

[Scott Novak]

No ballast resistor though.

No ballast resistor is used with a Jacobs ignition computer. It limits the ignition coil current internally.

$85 isn't the deal of the century, but it isn't a bad price either if the seller will warranty that the ignition is not defective. You also know where he lives and there are no shipping costs to deal with.

If you have an ohmmeter, measure the resistance between the high voltage terminal and either one of the threaded brass stud terminals. Th secondary resistance on the various versions of Ultra Coils ranges from a low of 1,300 ohms to a high of 8,700 ohms.

The Ultra coil in the photo looks like one that should have a secondary resistance of around 8,100 ohms. If you measure much higher than then it is probably bad or intermittent.

The Primary should measure around 0.40 ohms, but most ohmmeters cannot measure this accurately. If you do try to measure the primary resistance, first connect your ohmmeter leads together and measure their resistance. Then when you make a resistance measurement, subtract the meter lead resistance and you will have a more accurate measurement.

Scott Novak

[Kelley]

My tester, it a new Actron CP7677 Automotive TroubleShooter - Digital Multimeter and Engine Analyzer. Not the best one out there, but certainly not the worst.



I've only used it once to check all of it's various functions on a running engine, and all checks passed. Double checked with a borrowed neighbors Snap-on unit. It should be adequate for checking ignition coil primary and secondary resistance values.

[Scott Novak]

Here are some typical measurements of Jacobs ignition coil Primary and
Secondary Resistance and Turns Ratio. There is a lot of variation between the published specifications and the actual measured values.

There are at least 10 different versions of the Ultra Coil, and at least 6 different versions of the Ultra Torquer Coil. Not every version is listed.

There are rumours of a 1:60 Turns Ratio Ultra Torquer Coil, but I haven't seen one yet.

Scott Novak

Code: Select all

Jacobs Ignition Coils -  Measured Primary & Secondary Resistance & Turns Ratio

                                High Voltage  High Voltage  Primary     Secondary   Turns
                                Terminal      Terminal      Resistance  Resistance  Ratio
                                Metal         Protrusion    Measured    Measured    Measured

C-4, 10-32 Threaded             Aluminum      1-3/16"       0.40 Ω      7.17 KΩ     87.7
Brass Studs
					
Ultra Coil, New style, 10-32    Aluminum      1-1/8"        0.40 Ω      7.10 KΩ     91.6
Threaded Brass Studs

Ultra Coil, Cube Shaped         Aluminum      1"            0.40 Ω      7.17 KΩ     87.7

Ultra Coil, Cube Shaped         Brass         3/8"          0.38 Ω      2.56 KΩ     84.9

Ultra Coil, Cube Shaped         Aluminum      13/16"        0.41 Ω      7.72 KΩ     88.6

Ultra Coil, Cube Shaped,        Aluminum      7/16"         0.35 Ω      1.33 KΩ     60.3
Screw On Aluminum HV Tip        Threaded

Ultra Coil, Cube Shaped         Aluminum      11/16"        Shorted     8.08 KΩ     Shorted

Ultra Coil, Cube Shaped         Aluminum      5/8"          0.41 Ω      8.72 KΩ     101.5
No Gnd Wire
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------					
CMD Ultra Coil, Blue,           Aluminum      1-1/4"        Shorted     7.73 KΩ     Shorted
Shorted
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------					
Ultra Torquer, New Style,       Aluminum      1-3/16"       0.41 Ω      8.71 KΩ     101.7
Push On Terminals

Ultra Torquer,                  Aluminum      Long          0.38 Ω      7.48 KΩ     86.9
Early Single Bolt Mount, Blue
With High Voltage Shield

Ultra Torquer,                  Aluminum      Long          0.42 Ω      7.51 KΩ     86.9
Early Single Bolt Mount, Black

Ultra Torquer,                  Aluminum      Long          0.40 Ω      7.5 KΩ      87.0
Early Single Bolt Mount, Blue

Ultra Torquer,                  Brass         1/2" Short    0.40 Ω      1.98 KΩ     85.1
Early Single Bolt Mount, Blue
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------					
With the Omni-Series Ignition systems, you can mesure the Secondary resistance between the
high voltage terminal and the thick Red wire that connects to the battery.  You cannot
measure the Primary resistance or the Turns Ratio without taking it apart.					

Omni Torquer                    Brass         1/2"          0.41 Ω      2.52 KΩ     85.4

Omni Magnum OM150/400MJ         Brass         1/2"          0.33 Ω      2.80 KΩ     84.1
Dual Tapped Primary                                         0.41 Ω                  101.8

Omni-Pak,                       Aluminum      7/16"         0.35 Ω      1.33 KΩ     60.3
Screw On Aluminum HV Tip        Threaded

===================================================

PLEASE NOTE that all resistance measurements were performed at a room temperature of approximately 72 degrees F.

The actual resistance of the ignition coil when it's running and hotter will be higher than those measurements listed here.

[Scott Novak]

Jacobs Accessories.

The Jacobs Pro Street, FC 3000, Off Road, and RV model have a terminal or pair of connectors that you can switch to ground to force the ignition computer to deliver maximum spark energy for a short time.

Bottom of Oil Pan shaped Pro Street, Off Road, and RV Models.


This terminal can be connected to the Jacobs Uphill Power Module that will switch on maximum spark energy when driving uphill.

This terminal can also be connected to a microswitch underneath the accelerator pedal that is actuated only at full throttle.

The newer Oval shaped Pro Street, FC-3000, Off Road, and RV models have a pair of connectors to connect the Uphill Power module or Accelerator Pedal Microswitch between instead of a terminal strip on the bottom.

Jacobs Uphill Power Module


The Jacob Boostmaster and OptoTimer have a built in dashboard adjustable Soft RPM limiter adjustable with a knob, and they also have an knob adjustable spark timing Retard control that will allow up to 15 degrees of spark timing retard. In addition, the Boostmaster also has a second retard setting that is actuated by a boost pressure switch to retard the ignition timing during boost conditions.

These are very useful to check your distributor timing on the road. You set your timing about 7 degrees more than what you believe to be optimim spark timing, and adjust the knob for 7 degrees of retard which brings the spark timing back to where you think it should be.

While you drive at full throttle, you can advance the spark timing until you hear detonation. The detonation should happen equally at all RPMs. If it doesn't, you will need to adjust your centrifugal advance until detonation occurs equally at all RPMs. Then back off about 3 degrees as a safety margin. You may be surprised to find out that your spark timing needs to be adjusted. Some racers that used locked distributor rotors without any centrifugal advance will use an ignition timing retard device to get them in and out of the pits, and then dial back the retard when they are racing again.

You can buy a used Boostmaster or OptoTimer for betwen $25 and $50. I purchased 3 of them on ebay for less than $30 each.

The only problem is that they are calibrated for either 4-cylinder, 6-Cyinder, of 8-Cylinder engines, and nowhere on the case is an indication of which engine it was calibrated for. No freaking part number. The part number was on the box.

What happens if you use one designed for 8 cylinder engines on a 4 cylinder engine, is that it throws off the calibration of the knobs. This means that you set RPM limit knob for double the RPM limit that you want. And the retard calibration will also be incorrect. But it will still work and makes a good diagnostic tool to checkout your ignition timing.

I have both an 8 cylinder version and a 4 cylinder version and I will be making schematic diagrams of each to determine which component values need to be changed to calibrate them for 4 cylinder use. I will post the information when I have it.

Boostmaster


A Direct Connect Jacobs ignition computer with the Orange and Purple wires, and 6-Wire Omni-Series ignition computers may also be used with fuel injection computers that require a negative voltage spike to trigger them. An optional 2-Wire secondary trigger is all that is needed. An additional ignition wire is used to connect the high voltage from the original ignition coil to the secondary trigger, which reduces the voltage to a safe level for the Jacobs ignition computer to trigger from.

Secondary Trigger 2-Wire


Secondary triggers are not necessary for most air cooled VWs. I'm not sure about all VW fuel injection systems for air cooled VWs, but at least some of the Bus fuel injection systems will trigger with a positive voltage transition that is also used to trigger a Jacobs Direct Connect ignition computer.

Any Jacobs ignition computer that has a 1-Wire secondary trigger connected requires a negative voltage spike to trigger it and the original ignition coil must remain connected. These ignition systems were designed to fool fuel injection computers into thinking that the the original ignition coil is firing the spark plugs, when in fact the Jacobs ignition coil is firing the spark plugs. These are undesirable for most AC VWs.

Secondary Trigger 1-Wire


Scott Novak

[Kelley]

Scott, can you post info about ballast resistors? You have the coil chart, and the related resistance values for each, but for those of us who need to use a ballast resistor,,,,,

Could you explain how we could use your chart to determine which ballast resistor would be needed, at any given time, or just some examples? I ask this because all ballast resistors do not have the same values.


Am I even asking intelligent questions?

[Scott Novak]

The ballast resistance required is dependent upon the particular ignition system or ignition module that you are using.

Jacobs ignition computers DO NOT require a Ballast resistance.

Points and most points replacement ignition modules require a minimum total ballast resistance of at least 3.0 ohms.

Example: A Jacobs ignition coil with a Primary resistance of 0.4 ohms requires a Ballast resistance of about 2.6 ohms to equal the 3.0 ohms minimum total ballast resistance required for points and most points replacement ignition modules.

A smaller total ballast resistance will allow too much primary current to flow which could overheat the ignition coil and ignition module and damage them. You can use a larger ballast resistance, but I'd keep the maximum total ballast resistance to no more than 4.0 ohms, as you lose spark energy as the ballast resistance increases.

Also note that I do NOT recommend ignition modules mounted inside a hot distributor. I believe that it is more reliable to use points, or a reluctor and magnetic distributor pickup to trigger an external electronic ignition system.

By only using an electronic points eliminator ignition module to trigger an external electronic ignition system, the module will run cooler and more reliably.

Also note that many electronic ignition modules are susceptible to voltage surges and voltage spikes and that some sort of filter and voltage limiter should be used.
==================================

Allison was purchased by Crane

Any older Allison Optically triggered ignition system requires a minimum total ballast resistance of 3.0 ohms.

http://www.cranecams.com/

Instructions for XR-700
http://www.cranecams.com/pdf/90000700.pdf

XR-700 must use 3.0 ohms or greater

Instructions for XR-3000
http://www.cranecams.com/pdf/90000700.pdf

XR 3000 does not require a ballast resistor.

While no warnings are given by Crane/Allison, if the ignition key is left on while the engine is NOT running the Crane/Allison ignition system, and, or ignition coil may fail.

==================================

http://www.empius.com/

http://www.empius.com/2009_catalog/empi2009_pg111.html

The Empi Accu-Fire appears to lbe a knock off of the Compu-Fire ignition modules and may in fact be Compu-Fire with an EMPI label.

Accu-Fire makes NO statement whatsoever about the required ballast resistance. As such assume that you need a minimum of 3.0 ohms total ballast resistance.

While no warnings are given by Accu-Fire, if the ignition key is left on while the engine is NOT running the Accu-Fire ignition module, and, or ignition coil may fail.
==================================

http://www.compufire.com/

Compu-Fire VW-1 Ignition Module instructions
http://www.compufire.com/pdf-instructions/21100.pdf

Compu-Fire VW-2 Ignition Module Instructions
http://www.compufire.com/pdf-instructions/21100.pdf

Compu-Fire makes NO statement whatsoever about the required ballast resistance. As such assume that you need a minimum of 3.0 ohms total ballast resistance.

While no warnings are given by Compu-Fire, if the ignition key is left on while the engine is NOT running the Compu-Fire ignition module, and, or ignition coil may fail.
==================================

http://www.compu-tronix.com/index.htm

http://www.compu-tronix.com/VW009.htm

Instructions for VW009:
http://www.compu-tronix.com/VW009InstructionSheet.pdf

Requires a minimum of 2.4 ohms total ballast resistance

"The COMPU-TRONIX™ automatic shut down feature automatically turns the ignition system off- one second after the engine stops turning."
==================================

http://www.hot-spark.com/

Instructions:
http://www.Hot-Spark.com/Installing-Hot-Spark.htm

The Hot Spark module requires a minimum total ballast resistance of 1.5 ohms.

While no warnings are given by Hot Spark, if the ignition key is left on while the engine is NOT running the Hot Spark ignition module, and, or ignition coil may fail.
==================================
http://www.malloryperformance.com/

http://www.malloryperformance.com/pdf/Distributors.pdf

Mallory Unilite ignition modules require a minimum total ballast resistance of 1.4 ohms.

While no warnings are given by Mallory, if the ignition key is left on while the engine is NOT running the Unilite ignition module, and, or ignition coil may fail.
------------------------------------------------------

Mallory MBI ignition modules (Magnetic Breakerless Ignition ) require a minimum total ballast resistance of 1.4 ohms.

While no warnings are given by Mallory, if the ignition key is left on while the engine is NOT running the MBI ignition module, and, or ignition coil may fail.
------------------------------------------------------

Mallory 540 & 550 Magnetic Breakerless Conversion Kit instructions:
http://www.malloryperformance.com/pdf/540.pdf

Mallory 540 & 550 Magnetic Breakerless Conversion Kits require a minimum total ballast resistance of 3.0 ohms.

While no warnings are given by Mallory, if the ignition key is left on while the engine is NOT running the magnetic pickup amplifier , and, or ignition coil may fail.
==================================

http://www.pertronix.com/prod/default.aspx

Pertronix Ignitor I

http://www.pertronix.com/prod/ig/ignitor/default.aspx

Instructions for Ignitor I
http://www.pertronix.com/support/manual ... 12vneg.pdf

Pertronix makes NO statement whatsoever about the required ballast resistance. As such assume that you need a minimum of 3.0 ohms total ballast resistance.

While no warnings are given by Pertronix, if the ignition key is left on while the engine is NOT running the Pertronix Ignitor I ignition module, and, or ignition coil can fail.
------------------------------------------

Pertronix Ignitor II

http://www.pertronix.com/prod/ig/ignitor2/default.aspx

Pertronix makes NO statement whatsoever about the required ballast resistance. However they do state that it may be used with a 0.6 ohm ignition coil. Ask Pertronix if you can use a coil with less than 0.6 ohms primaty resistance without a ballast resistance.

"Senses incorrectly wired Ignitor II or a "key left on" condition and shuts down the system protecting the coil and other components from damage."
==================================

Scott Novak

[Kelley]

The I.C.E. Pak also has an extremely high output current, but was optimized for 4 cylinder street engines. It does not multi-spark for as many degrees of crankshaft rotation as the regular Jacobs ignition systems. The I.C.E. Pak does NOT have a built in RPM limiter. However I DO NOT recommend them because they seem to have a high failure rate. When they are working they work extremely well.


Scott Novak

Do these have a complete failure, or just one component of the system,like the computer, or coil, ETC. Is the coil in the I.C.E. system one version of the coil explanations that you've already covered?

[Scott Novak]

Do these have a complete failure, or just one component of the system,like the computer, or coil, ETC. Is the coil in the I.C.E. system one version of the coil explanations that you've already covered?

The Capacitive discharge ignition computer seems to fail too frequently. I've had two of them fail on me and received a third one that was defective. It could just be coincidence and a run of bad luck on my part. But I haven't had this kind of failure problem with most of ht other Jacobs ignition computers.

The ICE Pak system comes with a Black Ultra Torquer coil. I haven't seen any problems with the coil.

The Ultra Torquer coil is a great ignition coil and sells for an average of about $35 on ebay. So if you found an ICE Pak ignition system for $50 or less, it would probably be worth taking a chance. At the very least, I'd buy it and keep the Ultra Torquer coil and sell off the ICE Pak on ebay and find a Pro Street or Mileage Master instead. You could probably sell the ICE Pak ignition computer alone for $50 on ebay and still keep the Ultra Torquer coil.

But if I was using an ICE Pak, I'd want to carry a spare ignition system of some sort. As it is, I carry a spare Jacobs ignition computer and Ignition coil with me. As cheaply as I've gotten some of these Jacobs ignition system I can easily afford to carry spares. I also carry a spare fuel pump and a few other spare parts.

If you had gapped your spark plugs wider (As you should for improved performance.) and the ignition computer failed, if, at the very least, you carried a ballast resistor, you could connect the ballast resistor to the ignition coil and connect the points to the ignition coil and it would get you home. You would probably have missing at full throttle acceleration, without the Ignition computer, but it would still get you home, just not as fast.

It's also possible that if you found a NOS ICE Pak that hadn't been abused and overheated, it might be reliable. The one variable with any used electronics is that you don't know if it was abused or not.

Scott Novak

[Beezerbob]

Very Good INFO!! I have Omni Mag on my 64 SBC 327 P.U. and it works great ! Now to find one for the VW

[Beezerbob]

I found this and I would like Scott Novak to comment!! http://www.corvetteforum.net/c4/doctorj/heicoilinfo.htm "Jacobs' advertising makes unusual use of electrical engineering language so I take their specs with a grain of salt." I, not an Educated mechanic, read, try things, ect! So sometimes I must remember "according to sientific Theory The Bumble Bee cant fly! " The ULTRA COIL is overpriced! but in the article the C-4, and Canister Coil look good! as to what you get for your money

[Kelley]

Scott, have you ever used the Jacob's Accuvolt?

[brettm69]

Scott (or anyone), what is your opinion and/or experience with the MSD 8485 distributor & 6A ignition module for AC motors?

Brett

[Kelley]

Scott, I took this from a post you made on another site,,,, back in 2005,,,,,,,

Jacob's Ignition Omni-Pak
6 wire version install
The 6 wire Omni models CAN trigger directly from points, Mallory Unilite & MBI, Pertronix, Computfire, etc.
The 6 wire color codes are as follows:

The Heavy Red wire connects to the Positive 12V terminal on the Battery. 

The Heavy Black wire connects to the Negative 12V terminal of the battery.

The Thin Red wire connects to the Positive 12V from the Ignition Keyswitch.

Green is the Trigger wire that connects to your points, etc.

The White wire connects to your Tachometer. 

To use a two wire Secondary Trigger You connect the Black wire of the Secondary Trigger to the Thin Black wire on the Omni-Pak. You connect the Green wire of the Secondary Trigger to the Green Trigger wire of the Omni-Pak.
Scott Novak

Earlier in that post, you mention putting a 15 amp inline fuse for the heavy red wire, but it was in reference to the 3 wire version Omni-pak.

Do you recommend a fuse for the 4 and 6 wire versions as well? I only ask because it wasn't clear to me.

And searching the net for Jacob's Omni-Pak PDF's,,,, well, let's just say the result was negative. Every other Jacob's system is listed on Accel's site, but the Omni's are missing.


Answered my own question by looking at the 2, 6-wire Omni-Paks I picked up on ebay. There's already an inline fuse holder there, one came with a 20a fuse, the other had a 15a.