There is a "ultra rare Gary Peloquin Pedolock limited slip I.R.S. type 1 bug transmission" on ebay.
I'm in need of one after my tranny disintegrated on the dyno last week, but I'm pretty new at Type 1 speed stuff and have never heard of this fellow.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayI ... 1873969133
What can anyone tell me about this builder?
Thanks,
Jeff
Type 1 LSD on ebay
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Bruce2
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Type 1 LSD on ebay
I'd be more concerned with the strength and wear life of that special diff first.
You'd think someone with 394 feedbacks would have the brains to post a few pics on such a big dollar item.
You'd think someone with 394 feedbacks would have the brains to post a few pics on such a big dollar item.
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Pablo
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Type 1 LSD on ebay
homer
While Gary Peloquin has been around forever (and there's likely nothing "wrong" with his early IRS unit), you'd be much better off getting an original IRS ZF from Bruce. The ZF is a more efficient LSD with friction plates, rather than friction cones. And the price is quite reasonable --
Paul
While Gary Peloquin has been around forever (and there's likely nothing "wrong" with his early IRS unit), you'd be much better off getting an original IRS ZF from Bruce. The ZF is a more efficient LSD with friction plates, rather than friction cones. And the price is quite reasonable --
Paul
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Bruce2
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Type 1 LSD on ebay
Is that how it works, with cones? A very interesting idea. Do you know more about that diff? This is the first I've heard of it.
Gary has been building gearboxes for decades. I remember seeing ads for Peloquin Transmissions in the magazines years ago. I'm not sure but I think he was working for Transform for a while. He bought a ZF from me about 4-5 years ago.
Gary has been building gearboxes for decades. I remember seeing ads for Peloquin Transmissions in the magazines years ago. I'm not sure but I think he was working for Transform for a while. He bought a ZF from me about 4-5 years ago.
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homer
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Type 1 LSD on ebay
Bruce,
Can I ask what are some of the differences between a ZF and a Quaife for a Type 1 IRS?
My inquiries about buying a rebuilt box for the 1915 in my autox Ghia are generating recommendations and price quotes for adding a Quaife, but no one has mentioned a ZF.
It sounds like ZF made a diff for the Type I IRS back in the day. Are the ZF's available now new or ones that were first made for Type 1's in the 60's and 70's and reconditioned for reuse? If the latter, are they still pretty much bullet proof?
Thanks,
Jeff
'71 Ghia autoXr
Can I ask what are some of the differences between a ZF and a Quaife for a Type 1 IRS?
My inquiries about buying a rebuilt box for the 1915 in my autox Ghia are generating recommendations and price quotes for adding a Quaife, but no one has mentioned a ZF.
It sounds like ZF made a diff for the Type I IRS back in the day. Are the ZF's available now new or ones that were first made for Type 1's in the 60's and 70's and reconditioned for reuse? If the latter, are they still pretty much bullet proof?
Thanks,
Jeff
'71 Ghia autoXr
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Bruce2
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Type 1 LSD on ebay
The ZF is a clutch type LSD just like the American cars had in the 60s and 70s. The more power you apply, the greater the clamping forces on the disc stack. The discs resist the normal differential action. The Quaife uses some kind of worm gear to transfer the power to the output gears.
Some will say the Q's design means it will virtually never wear out, and a clutch type will. A lot depends on how you drive it. I've had the ZF in my car for 60k miles and it was well used when I put it in. I can still lock it up daily. I was talking to Mike at Rancho and he told me they have a customer with a Golf who races it. He kills a Quaife EVERY YEAR and has to put in a new one.
A weak point of a Bug IRS trans is the output splines of the stock diff. These have been know to snap off (although I've never seen it done or known of anyone to do it) An upgrade is to weld on Bus splines for $200 + exch. There are two models of Quaife for IRS Bugs. One with stock T1 splines and the other with T2 splines. This upgrade doesn't exist for the ZF, and Chris at Weddle told me they couldn't do it. But at the same time, his educated guess was that the ZF used a stronger alloy than the standard Beetle open diff and therefore is much stronger, not needing the T2 spline upgrade. Since almost all ZFs go into hi-performance applications, you'd think someone would be capable of breaking them, but I haven't heard of anyone doing it. I'm still using Beetle size small CV joints. For your use this problem is moot since you don't do hard drag race starts with slicks.
Another difference between the Q and the ZF is that the Q does not provide any LS action on deceleration, whereas the ZF does. This could really help heavy braking from high speeds with downshifting. If one wheel wanted to lock up, the ZF will prevent it. One drag racer I know paid nearly the same money for a ZF swing diff because of this over a new Q. He said if something goes wrong at the big end of the track, he doesn't want the diff to act like an open diff. I'm not sure what he's concerned about.
The IRS ZFs available today were all made in the 70s. I've seen a surprising number that are virtually new inside.
Some will say the Q's design means it will virtually never wear out, and a clutch type will. A lot depends on how you drive it. I've had the ZF in my car for 60k miles and it was well used when I put it in. I can still lock it up daily. I was talking to Mike at Rancho and he told me they have a customer with a Golf who races it. He kills a Quaife EVERY YEAR and has to put in a new one.
A weak point of a Bug IRS trans is the output splines of the stock diff. These have been know to snap off (although I've never seen it done or known of anyone to do it) An upgrade is to weld on Bus splines for $200 + exch. There are two models of Quaife for IRS Bugs. One with stock T1 splines and the other with T2 splines. This upgrade doesn't exist for the ZF, and Chris at Weddle told me they couldn't do it. But at the same time, his educated guess was that the ZF used a stronger alloy than the standard Beetle open diff and therefore is much stronger, not needing the T2 spline upgrade. Since almost all ZFs go into hi-performance applications, you'd think someone would be capable of breaking them, but I haven't heard of anyone doing it. I'm still using Beetle size small CV joints. For your use this problem is moot since you don't do hard drag race starts with slicks.
Another difference between the Q and the ZF is that the Q does not provide any LS action on deceleration, whereas the ZF does. This could really help heavy braking from high speeds with downshifting. If one wheel wanted to lock up, the ZF will prevent it. One drag racer I know paid nearly the same money for a ZF swing diff because of this over a new Q. He said if something goes wrong at the big end of the track, he doesn't want the diff to act like an open diff. I'm not sure what he's concerned about.
The IRS ZFs available today were all made in the 70s. I've seen a surprising number that are virtually new inside.
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Flintstone_Charlie
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Type 1 LSD on ebay
Hi All,
I've ben autocrossing for about 25 years and have a couple of National Championships to show for it. There are basically 5 different options for limited slip differentials:
1) locked diffs>> spools or welded spider gears. The allow no differential movement between the wheels and put the same power to both tires at all times. These are most commonly seen on drag cars or dirt track cars. They tend to cause massive understeer on street cars.
2) the "Detroit Locker". These are roller or cone clutch arrangements that lock under power and are completely open on free wheel or deceleration. They also tend to cause massive understeer for street cars.
3) Viscous couplings. These have a series of finger plates in them and are then filled with a silicone bead fluid. The late Syncro Vanagon uses these. They allow small amounts of differential action but get stiffer when there is lots of differential action. They are the norm for a lot of the AWD street cars for the center diff and sometimes also the axle diffs.
4) Clutch pack limited slips. These are the norm for the American cars. They consist of a preloaded clutch pack that has a crossover torque. For instance 100 ft lbs is common for a large American sedan. They slip some in the corners. They work reasonably well for sport use and can be shimmed for different crossover torque.....which is a real pain. The biggest drawback with them in hard racing use is that they wear the clutch packs and lose preload. For a hard racing situation it is common to start the race with more preload than one wants knowing that it will wear.
5) the Quaife. The Quaife is an interesting concept. It is kind of like a Mazda rotary. You have to look at the pictures and move your hands in all kinds of funny motions to understand how they work. They are based on the principal that a worm gear can drive but not be driven much. They have the interesting trait that they put more touque to a wheel with more traction. A great setup for trying to power off corners. The biggest disadvantage with them is that both wheels need to have some traction or they act like they are open. What the crossover torque is where they "break away" is a function of the angles on the gears.
For an autocross car I think the Quaife is the best of the group. I ran one for many years in a Lotus Elan with no maintenance problems. I even ran 10WT synthetic gear oil without problem. I'm running a VW based SOLO car now but I'm not allowed a limited slip so I haven't ever worked with one for the Type 1.
Hope this helps.
Flintstone Charlie
I've ben autocrossing for about 25 years and have a couple of National Championships to show for it. There are basically 5 different options for limited slip differentials:
1) locked diffs>> spools or welded spider gears. The allow no differential movement between the wheels and put the same power to both tires at all times. These are most commonly seen on drag cars or dirt track cars. They tend to cause massive understeer on street cars.
2) the "Detroit Locker". These are roller or cone clutch arrangements that lock under power and are completely open on free wheel or deceleration. They also tend to cause massive understeer for street cars.
3) Viscous couplings. These have a series of finger plates in them and are then filled with a silicone bead fluid. The late Syncro Vanagon uses these. They allow small amounts of differential action but get stiffer when there is lots of differential action. They are the norm for a lot of the AWD street cars for the center diff and sometimes also the axle diffs.
4) Clutch pack limited slips. These are the norm for the American cars. They consist of a preloaded clutch pack that has a crossover torque. For instance 100 ft lbs is common for a large American sedan. They slip some in the corners. They work reasonably well for sport use and can be shimmed for different crossover torque.....which is a real pain. The biggest drawback with them in hard racing use is that they wear the clutch packs and lose preload. For a hard racing situation it is common to start the race with more preload than one wants knowing that it will wear.
5) the Quaife. The Quaife is an interesting concept. It is kind of like a Mazda rotary. You have to look at the pictures and move your hands in all kinds of funny motions to understand how they work. They are based on the principal that a worm gear can drive but not be driven much. They have the interesting trait that they put more touque to a wheel with more traction. A great setup for trying to power off corners. The biggest disadvantage with them is that both wheels need to have some traction or they act like they are open. What the crossover torque is where they "break away" is a function of the angles on the gears.
For an autocross car I think the Quaife is the best of the group. I ran one for many years in a Lotus Elan with no maintenance problems. I even ran 10WT synthetic gear oil without problem. I'm running a VW based SOLO car now but I'm not allowed a limited slip so I haven't ever worked with one for the Type 1.
Hope this helps.
Flintstone Charlie
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Pablo
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Type 1 LSD on ebay
To expand a bit on what Charlie and Bruce said:
Autocross racing consists of relatively slow-speed turns. An 80% plate-style limited slip diff would push (understeer) in the sharpest turns, which would translate to slow course times. A torque-biasing diff is ideal for this sort of racing, as the lock-up percentage is linear with the amount of torque applied, and has zero lock-up on deceleration (just like an open diff). Many people also use 40% (or less) plate-style LSDs with some success in autocross. Nobody uses spools in autocross with success.
Quaife is merely a brand name of torque-biasing diff. There are dozens of manufacturers of TB diffs, the oldest of which is Zexel Torsen, where the first TB diffs originated in the '40s. Some of Zexel Torsen's diffs have more sophisticated designs, which have some degree of lock-up on deceleration.
Zexel Torsen diffs rarely wear out, while some other TB diff brands suffer from marginal internal machining, and thus require periodic replacement when the planetary gear pockets go egg-shape.
High speed, RWD track cars use high lock-up percentage plate-style LSDs, as these also provide lock-up (and thus stability) on deceleration. These diffs allow aggressive entry into high speed turns, while open or TB diffs require straight line breaking before turn entry.
Very high horsepower RWD track cars can get away with using spools, while AWD track cars do well with TB diffs in front, and spools (or very stiff LSDs) in back.
Most modern plate-style LSDs can be highly tuned to suit a particular car or application. High quality plasma-sprayed friction discs rarely require replacement --- every 30,000 miles in a Porsche Turbo 930 street car; once or twice during a full racing season in a Pro race car.
All top-running Porsches in the American Le Mans series use plate-style LSDs (although a few are experimenting with spools, "power flow", and viscous diffs).
Paul
Autocross racing consists of relatively slow-speed turns. An 80% plate-style limited slip diff would push (understeer) in the sharpest turns, which would translate to slow course times. A torque-biasing diff is ideal for this sort of racing, as the lock-up percentage is linear with the amount of torque applied, and has zero lock-up on deceleration (just like an open diff). Many people also use 40% (or less) plate-style LSDs with some success in autocross. Nobody uses spools in autocross with success.
Quaife is merely a brand name of torque-biasing diff. There are dozens of manufacturers of TB diffs, the oldest of which is Zexel Torsen, where the first TB diffs originated in the '40s. Some of Zexel Torsen's diffs have more sophisticated designs, which have some degree of lock-up on deceleration.
Zexel Torsen diffs rarely wear out, while some other TB diff brands suffer from marginal internal machining, and thus require periodic replacement when the planetary gear pockets go egg-shape.
High speed, RWD track cars use high lock-up percentage plate-style LSDs, as these also provide lock-up (and thus stability) on deceleration. These diffs allow aggressive entry into high speed turns, while open or TB diffs require straight line breaking before turn entry.
Very high horsepower RWD track cars can get away with using spools, while AWD track cars do well with TB diffs in front, and spools (or very stiff LSDs) in back.
Most modern plate-style LSDs can be highly tuned to suit a particular car or application. High quality plasma-sprayed friction discs rarely require replacement --- every 30,000 miles in a Porsche Turbo 930 street car; once or twice during a full racing season in a Pro race car.
All top-running Porsches in the American Le Mans series use plate-style LSDs (although a few are experimenting with spools, "power flow", and viscous diffs).
Paul
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homer
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Type 1 LSD on ebay
I really appreciate everybody's help in conveying info on the different LSDs.
I'm getting a dose of reality on what it would cost to have an LSD and custom ratios... could go 1500 to 2000 and up.
Another option has been encouragement to take mine apart and rebuild it myself which makes me somewhat nervous.
If I wind up going a mid route and buying one of several vendors pro street or pro comp rebuilds, I'm into a 600 to 900 range, which I may have to do just to get a tranny in the car now and wait for the set up I'd really like to have for later next year.
Wondering what experience anybody's had with the pro street and pro comp transmissions... this would be 100% autox, 1915 cc, hopefully 125 hp, always launches at 4,000, run it up to 7,000 to 7,400, sometimes all out wheelspin on Goodyear race slicks ... no street use.
Are the 600 to 900 rebuilds good to go for that type of competition, not full drag strip, but hard use?
Thanks,
Jeff
I'm getting a dose of reality on what it would cost to have an LSD and custom ratios... could go 1500 to 2000 and up.
Another option has been encouragement to take mine apart and rebuild it myself which makes me somewhat nervous.
If I wind up going a mid route and buying one of several vendors pro street or pro comp rebuilds, I'm into a 600 to 900 range, which I may have to do just to get a tranny in the car now and wait for the set up I'd really like to have for later next year.
Wondering what experience anybody's had with the pro street and pro comp transmissions... this would be 100% autox, 1915 cc, hopefully 125 hp, always launches at 4,000, run it up to 7,000 to 7,400, sometimes all out wheelspin on Goodyear race slicks ... no street use.
Are the 600 to 900 rebuilds good to go for that type of competition, not full drag strip, but hard use?
Thanks,
Jeff
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69bug
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- Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2001 12:01 am
Type 1 LSD on ebay
damn!...u'd think some of the guys that make lsd's for v8 and muscle cars would make one for the bug for a lot cheaper than 1500...aren't those like 300 or 400 bucks???<that compared to 1500????also, y is it that bugs can do 2 tire burnouts with a open diff and my dodge never burns both tires out, not even in the rain(ok, ok, sometimes in the rain)...but still y?
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you might be a redneck if u got a sinlge port vw motor next to a tree 10 feet away from your house...i guess i'm a redneck...shoot!!!!!!
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you might be a redneck if u got a sinlge port vw motor next to a tree 10 feet away from your house...i guess i'm a redneck...shoot!!!!!!
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Bruce2
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Type 1 LSD on ebay
New Quaife swing diffs are $1295. IRS are $1095. Good used swing ZFs go for $1000. Excellent used IRS ZFs go for $600. What diff for VWs costs $1500, or are you making that up?
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69bug
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Type 1 LSD on ebay
I ESTIMATED WRONG...BUT WITH TAX AND SHIPPIN...IT GETS CLOSE...BESIDES, THAT WASN'T THE POINT...I WAS JUST SAYING WHY THEY CANT BE IN THE PRICE RANGE OF THE V8 STYLE ONE'S
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you might be a redneck if u got a sinlge port vw motor next to a tree 10 feet away from your house...i guess i'm a redneck...shoot!!!!!!
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you might be a redneck if u got a sinlge port vw motor next to a tree 10 feet away from your house...i guess i'm a redneck...shoot!!!!!!
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homer
- Posts: 149
- Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 12:01 am
Type 1 LSD on ebay
The 1500 to 2000 is not just the quote for the LSD but quotes I'm getting for rebuilt competition use transmissions with custom ratios and an LSD.
Santa's always good to me, but that would be pushing it a little this season.
Jeff
Santa's always good to me, but that would be pushing it a little this season.
Jeff
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Pablo
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Type 1 LSD on ebay
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by homer:
<B>I'm getting a dose of reality on what it would cost to have an LSD and custom ratios... could go 1500 to 2000 and up.
</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Man! If someone reputable is quoting 2,000 to rebuild your transmission with custom ratios and an LSD, they really must be "in the Christmas spirit" --
An accurate quote with quality components should be over twice that amount.
<B>I'm getting a dose of reality on what it would cost to have an LSD and custom ratios... could go 1500 to 2000 and up.
</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Man! If someone reputable is quoting 2,000 to rebuild your transmission with custom ratios and an LSD, they really must be "in the Christmas spirit" --
An accurate quote with quality components should be over twice that amount.
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Pablo
- Posts: 1162
- Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2002 12:01 am
Type 1 LSD on ebay
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 69bug:
u'd think some of the guys that make lsd's for v8 and muscle cars would make one for the bug for a lot cheaper than 1500...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think that was the original intent of Gary Peloquin with the modified stock IRS diff, which started this thread. I don't remember how much his mods were, but I'm guessing it was in the $400 range.
u'd think some of the guys that make lsd's for v8 and muscle cars would make one for the bug for a lot cheaper than 1500...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think that was the original intent of Gary Peloquin with the modified stock IRS diff, which started this thread. I don't remember how much his mods were, but I'm guessing it was in the $400 range.