Carrera 2 replica engine for the Ghia - Choices

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Re: Carrera 2 replica engine for the Ghia - Choices

Post by Piledriver » Fri Jun 24, 2016 1:06 pm

Yeah, saw the news this AM, was certainly not what most everyone expected, even the Leave camp.

Mario sells those VW Speed Shop TBs as well...
Don't know if he stocks them all the time.
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Re: Carrera 2 replica engine for the Ghia - Choices

Post by RHough » Fri Jun 24, 2016 1:51 pm

Piledriver wrote:Yeah, saw the news this AM, was certainly not what most everyone expected, even the Leave camp.

Mario sells those VW Speed Shop TBs as well...
Don't know if he stocks them all the time.
Okay I admit to not paying close attention. Everyone suggests Mario is a go to guy for EFI but I don't know his forum name or business name. Where do I go? Link?

Just to triple check I tossed the 47.5 idle jets back in. Didn't make two blocks before knowing that everything I've done trying to get the mains in early has not made a substantial difference. With this engine/carb combo the transition from a too rich idle circuit to the main circuit is not going to happen for me.

EFI here I come!

Edit: Mario at the Dub Shop ... How silly I feel ... :-(

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Re: Carrera 2 replica engine for the Ghia - Choices

Post by Piledriver » Fri Jun 24, 2016 8:55 pm

:lol:
Sorry, I just automatically figure everyone knows Mario as he has been a regular here since dirt was new.

Great people.
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Re: Carrera 2 replica engine for the Ghia - Choices

Post by RHough » Sat Jun 25, 2016 10:02 pm

Amber and the 1967 did our first day of driver's school today. :-)

The Ghia is the star out of 35.
In one of the drill I had the instruments record 0-60 times.

7.2
7.3
7.1

How much HP is that? Car with me in it weighs 2188lbs.

Needs brakes ... or I'm just not pushing the pedal hard enough. Ferodo DS2500's

The engine just sings to 6000. Happy Happy Happy

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Re: Carrera 2 replica engine for the Ghia - Choices

Post by RHough » Sun Jun 26, 2016 11:10 pm

Well ... that was short and bittersweet. Amber got towed home from the track with a locked up engine. Was running just fine, no odd noises ... just felt like it dropped two cylinders and was loosing power. Then stopped when put the clutch in to downshift. Crank moves about 10° from lock to lock. Maybe a spun bearing or a bent valve ...

I'll pull valve covers to see what I can see.

L5 heads have dual springs (whatever that means) and should not have been hurt at under 6200 RPM. Oil temp was never over 200°F, Hot oil pressure was 30+ over 3000 RPM. I don't know for certain that the oil pickup didn't go dry but the deep sump should have prevented that.

Engine builder never gave me a RPM limit not to exceed but I suspect the valves were floating at 6350 RPM. I may have over revved on a 3-2 downshift and bent something ... it would be cool if I can fix it without splitting the cases.

I'm going to tone the car down anyway so I've been window shopping components.

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Re: Carrera 2 replica engine for the Ghia - Choices

Post by Piledriver » Mon Jun 27, 2016 12:56 am

damn...
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Re: Carrera 2 replica engine for the Ghia - Choices

Post by RHough » Mon Jun 27, 2016 9:28 am

Piledriver wrote:damn...
Yes... damn

These are the heads. http://www.drdracingheads.com/xcart/DRD ... -bore.html "High Rev Dual Springs" on L5 heads.

During my tuning runs it felt like a valve float issue over 6000 the engine changed note; Waaaaaa below 6000, then Blaaaatttt and no power just over 6000. The tach tell-tale read 6390 RPM went this happened during a couple of runs. I set the shift point at 5800 to give myself some room for error/reaction time so I wouldn't risk hitting valve float (if that what it was). I ran out of time to worry about why it was laying down like a switch was thrown above 6200.

I reset the tell tale at the beginning of each track session and usually had 5700-5900 RPM as max. I had one session on Saturday that I winged it to 6200 on a downshift. It ran normally on the way home and back to the track on Sunday. First session Sunday after running a few laps with my instructor I blipped for the 3 - 2 downshift and had power loss coming out og the corner in 2nd. Tach Tell-Tale was 6120 or 6210. I don't think I over-revved it. The lower end and valve train should be good to 7000+ ?

I'm really curious to find out what failed.

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Re: Carrera 2 replica engine for the Ghia - Choices

Post by RHough » Mon Jun 27, 2016 10:58 am

I just went back and re-read the start of this thread ... :-(

A few things stand out.

The 92x74 combo with the W-120 and 1.25:1 ratio rockers did have that 6000 RPM snarl and the 7.1 second 0-60 time tends to support a 120-140 BHP number.

Since Day one I've had issues with tuning the Webers. The stock 1bbl got 29 MPG, the Webers on the stock 1600 with a header got 25 MPG but had what I now know is a lean hole between the idle circuit and mains. The carbs were fine on track at 3000 RPM+ right up to redline. Just street manners suck and the big engine never got better than 13.5 MPG --- and the lean hole was undrivable unless the low speed mixture was 11-12:1

I'd like some advice from you all.

Things I like about this engine/carb/exhaust combination:
Lots of power
Good idle quality
More torque from idle and no dips in the power curve

Things I hate about this engine combination:
Noise!
Noise from the valve train because of the chrome-moly pushrods and the zero-cold adjustment they require
Noise from the intakes, that intake moan gets tiresome
Noise from the exhaust, the drone even at 3000 RPM cruise is way to much
No heat, I need heat.
Having to drop the muffler to adjust valves.

Going back to stock heat exchangers will require a different exhaust. I can cure the noise/drone.
Going to a Mexican Beetle EFI intake system will let me run the stock (quieter) Ghia intake hose/filter combo. I can do a modern engine management system with a Megasquirt ECU.

That leaves these questions for the collective:

What do I have to change to use alloy push rods so I can reduce the valve train clatter? The cam is a W-120 with SCAT 1.25:1 ratio rockers. I'm open to changing the cam and rockers to stop the clatter if that's what it takes. If the W-120 with standard ratio rockers and alloy pushrods will be as quiet as stock what will I give up?
With the power limited by the stock heater boxes and a dual port intake manifold can I still use the L5 heads? What are my options for exhaust using the stock heaters and keeping it quiet?

This should address all my issues and leave me with a nice strong street engine that is not much louder than stock.

I'd really like your advice on this. Turns out that I didn't really want a 6000+ RPM 140 HP engine in my street car if the price is threshing machine noises, the moan and drone of the intake and exhaust, and giving up good heat. Would be a great track only engine.

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Re: Carrera 2 replica engine for the Ghia - Choices

Post by Piledriver » Mon Jun 27, 2016 1:31 pm

I have seen European guys with a central airbox/aircleaner setup that likely cuts down on the noise a lot, but I always enjoyed the song of the Webers, YMMV. Droning can be a muffler issue too.

Aircooled.net sells nice HD aluminum pushrods, no need to lose the cam/rockers, but I have been running CrMo pushrods for ~200K now with no noise issues, they only get loud when things get hot, which is their safety benefit, clearances go up with temp w/CrMo, instead of down as with alloy pushrods.

They sell quieter mufflers, and you can easily weld on v-bands for quick disconnects, they are not that pricey, you'll spend more having them welded on if you can't DIY.

The stock heater boxes will restrict your power pretty well.
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Re: Carrera 2 replica engine for the Ghia - Choices

Post by RHough » Mon Jun 27, 2016 3:26 pm

Piledriver wrote:I have seen European guys with a central airbox/aircleaner setup that likely cuts down on the noise a lot, but I always enjoyed the song of the Webers, YMMV. Droning can be a muffler issue too.

Aircooled.net sells nice HD aluminum pushrods, no need to lose the cam/rockers, but I have been running CrMo pushrods for ~200K now with no noise issues, they only get loud when things get hot, which is their safety benefit, clearances go up with temp w/CrMo, instead of down as with alloy pushrods.

They sell quieter mufflers, and you can easily weld on v-bands for quick disconnects, they are not that pricey, you'll spend more having them welded on if you can't DIY.

The stock heater boxes will restrict your power pretty well.
I took a look at the engine today. The valve train seems to be intact no obvious bent valves. I suppose I could pull the rocker shafts off to be dead certain.
Plugs are perfect.
A little debris in the oil that stuck to a magnet. The biggest bit is blue from heat and looks like a machining tailing.
The good news is it does not look like I killed it with over rev on downshift.
The bad news is that the cases have to come apart.

It look like I have a choice of under 80HP and stock heater boxes or keeping the CSP 1 1/2" heater boxes I have and blueprinting the system for air leaks and adjustment.

Also agree on the exhaust. Since I'm running a 1 3/4" nozzle on the collector anyway, there is no need for the huge pipe size on the muffler. The CSP Python muffler has a very stubby outlet that does not extend past the body. So I can try a muffler with a smaller pipe size and an outlet past the body.

My concern is that a EFI setup that uses individual runner throttle bodies will be just as loud as the Webers. That's what got me thinking about the Digifant EFI system of a Mexican VW.

I don't know what to expect when the cases get split. When the crank seizes, what are my chances of saving the crank and cases?

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Re: Carrera 2 replica engine for the Ghia - Choices

Post by Piledriver » Mon Jun 27, 2016 4:55 pm

Pull the plugs and rockers.
If the cranks turning freely some and you haven't swallowed a valve it's probably all savable.
Valve heads tend to break stuff violently when they get loose.

I'll make an absolute WAG that you spun a rod bearing on #2.
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Re: Carrera 2 replica engine for the Ghia - Choices

Post by RHough » Mon Jun 27, 2016 11:34 pm

Piledriver wrote:Pull the plugs and rockers.
If the cranks turning freely some and you haven't swallowed a valve it's probably all savable.
Valve heads tend to break stuff violently when they get loose.

I'll make an absolute WAG that you spun a rod bearing on #2.
Yep, seen lots of dropped valves over the years. Engine just went flat, lost power and stopped. No unusual noise or vibration. I thought the cable had slipped in the linkage.

I don't have a garage to work in at the moment so unless I drop the engine and pull it apart on my patio I'm stuck until my garage is finished.

Slight topic change ... if the ACN pushrods quiet the valve train, and I can get the exhaust drone down to a non deafening level I can think about keeping the performance with the EFI system.

Mario gets $3300 for a IDF based EFI+ignition system. His full deal Mexican Digifant system was $2900. So all the options are close to the same $$$

When I do this I want to go with spark control and timed sequential injection. Injectors in the manifolds close to the intakes are the better option rather than squirting into the manifold from the throttle body. I'm not up for kludging anything myself. Do you know if I can send my manifolds out to get modified for injectors so I can save the matched porting?

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Re: Carrera 2 replica engine for the Ghia - Choices

Post by Piledriver » Tue Jun 28, 2016 12:55 am

That's the cost of getting a ~turnkey setup that bolts on and runs in a weekend..

Consider 38mm Honda VFR ITBs... If you buy a "kit" the ITBs are frequently a huge fraction of the price.
You can get injector "spuds" that get welded in. JB Weld would probably even work.

The biggest "trick" is injector aim... You would want to build a drill jig based on something ~like WBX manifolds.
Wood could work for this or even Bondo.(seriously)
You use brass tubing as the bores and use steel drill sleeves.

You can also initially use the locations in the ITBs at first and move them at your leisure.

For best low-midrange, you ideally want to hit the back of the intake valves, only, as soon as they close unless you have a wild cam, then YMMV. High RPM you actually want injectors further out.

With a lot of overlap, given large enough injectors and sequential you can have the fuel ~all hit just after overlap, avoids having it all sucked out the exhaust. (expect to have to play with injection timing, it does matter)

A Microsquirt can be set up with 4 injector drivers from a few folks. Its not a DIY friendly mod unless you do SMD rework for fun.

My first MS2 had a quad coil driver and quad low-Z injector driver board in an external box, worked great, only swapped it out to go MS3. There are simpler ways to do that now.
(The "4channel" board from JBPerformance will do both , all logic driven, but high-Z injectors only)
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Re: Carrera 2 replica engine for the Ghia - Choices

Post by RHough » Tue Jun 28, 2016 10:25 am

Piledriver wrote:That's the cost of getting a ~turnkey setup that bolts on and runs in a weekend..
----
The biggest "trick" is injector aim... You would want to build a drill jig based on something ~like WBX manifolds.
Wood could work for this or even Bondo.(seriously)
You use brass tubing as the bores and use steel drill sleeves.

You can also initially use the locations in the ITBs at first and move them at your leisure.


For best low-midrange, you ideally want to hit the back of the intake valves, only, as soon as they close unless you have a wild cam, then YMMV. High RPM you actually want injectors further out.

With a lot of overlap, given large enough injectors and sequential you can have the fuel ~all hit just after overlap, avoids having it all sucked out the exhaust. (expect to have to play with injection timing, it does matter)

A Microsquirt can be set up with 4 injector drivers from a few folks. Its not a DIY friendly mod unless you do SMD rework for fun.

My first MS2 had a quad coil driver and quad low-Z injector driver board in an external box, worked great, only swapped it out to go MS3. There are simpler ways to do that now.
(The "4channel" board from JBPerformance will do both , all logic driven, but high-Z injectors only)
I don't know why I'm so married to the IDF replacement throttle body idea. But None of the VFR based solutions I've seen photos of look 'right' to me. I want that 16 - 17" intake runner length. The engine can use bigger TB's than the 40's to wake it up over 6000. I was using the little carbs in an effort to get the power to drop so a 6000 RPM shift point would feel natural. The damn engine is still pulling hard at 6000 so I might as well just put a rev limiter on it and go a bit bigger on the intakes.

I did some light reading on injector placement and sizing ... How about this idea:
Go with the IDF TB's to start and get used to the tuning software. Then go to a primary/secondary injector setup with the start and low speed injectors close to the valves and use the TB injectors for the high RPM secondaries?

Megasquirt v3 should be expandable to handle that?

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Re: Carrera 2 replica engine for the Ghia - Choices

Post by Piledriver » Tue Jun 28, 2016 12:20 pm

A MS3+MS3X (Or MSPro) can handle staged sequential, or a std ms2 running batch w/primary and secondary channel.
A microsquirt or MS3X can't run multiple injectors per channel, at least using the internal drivers.
You need logic controlled ign. coils or external coil drivers for any of those.
(Feature not bug, fully intentional design choice)

The current std mainboards are v3.0 or v3.57, so one has to be clear what you mean, as it seems everything is v3.
(microsquirt is v3, ms3, mainboard rev v3, TunerStudio is now V3 etc)

The 38mm VFR TB probably flow more vs. 44 IDF with the largest practical venturi..
Not needing a venturi has its advantages.

Pull the vents and boosters out of the idfs and you have idf TBs.
CB sells a TPS for IDFs.
You can get a Synclink for IDFs.
The IDFs are already installed.

Few ~2L engines really need larger than 40mm ITBs, esp if street driven.
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