Carrera 2 replica engine for the Ghia - Choices

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RHough
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Re: Carrera 2 replica engine for the Ghia - Choices

Post by RHough » Tue Jun 28, 2016 2:37 pm

Piledriver wrote:A MS3+MS3X (Or MSPro) can handle staged sequential, or a std ms2 running batch w/primary and secondary channel.
A microsquirt or MS3X can't run multiple injectors per channel, at least using the internal drivers.
You need logic controlled ign. coils or external coil drivers for any of those.
(Feature not bug, fully intentional design choice)

The current std mainboards are v3.0 or v3.57, so one has to be clear what you mean, as it seems everything is v3.
(microsquirt is v3, ms3, mainboard rev v3, TunerStudio is now V3 etc)

The 38mm VFR TB probably flow more vs. 44 IDF with the largest practical venturi..
Not needing a venturi has its advantages.

Pull the vents and boosters out of the idfs and you have idf TBs.
CB sells a TPS for IDFs.
You can get a Synclink for IDFs.
The IDFs are already installed.

Few ~2L engines really need larger than 40mm ITBs, esp if street driven.
Agreed. The Dub Dyno engine app was what led me to the current combination of displacement, cam, and intake. If I keep the displacement, cam, rockers, and exhaust the same. The change from 40mm IDF Webers to 44's gets 14 HP gain above 5000 and the torque curve is within 1 ft/lb with a 5000 rpm torque peak up 1 ft/lb from the 4500 rpm torque peak with the 40's. Going to 48's loses a bunch of torque below 5000 for a 1 HP gain at 6000.
Just to verify the w-120 cam choice I looked at the same build with a w-125 cam and lost both HP and torque below 5000 for a small gain over 6000.

The reason I don't want to use the Webers as TB's is that I can keep them as a bolt on backup then sell them after I'm 100% committed to the efi system.

All the 40mm IDF pattern TB's I've seen have a MAP Port built in that the Webers lack.

$$$ aside, the progression from 40mm TB's with injectors to start then making a dual injector system using modified manifolds is in my comfort zone. I can drive the car with my spare manifolds while I have someone do the work to add injectors to my port matched manifolds.

The 0-60 times suggest this engine is stronger than I had estimated. I'm getting close to having to think about cv joints, clutch, and flywheel. I have no reason to doubt that it is making the 121 HP Dub Dyno predicted. So I think 135-140 from it with 40mm TB's and efi is reasonable. I get to keep the nice fat torque curve below 4500 and have a bit more at the top end along with better fuel economy.

BTW- I pulled the rockers off and the crank rocks 5 deg back and forth from lock to lock. I am so tempted to pull it and tear it down on the patio so I can get a parts list going to rebuild it once my garage is done... Not knowing what I'll find is bugging me.

Your Wag is #2 rod bearing... Why? I have no feel for what the weak spots are in a VW bottom end.

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Piledriver
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Re: Carrera 2 replica engine for the Ghia - Choices

Post by Piledriver » Tue Jun 28, 2016 3:58 pm

That's the closest stop if any trash gets by the filter or a filter comes apart.
Frams are (in)famous for that.

Also, if you sucked any air going around a corner, that's where it most likely escapes as its closest.
Air lubricates and cools bearings poorly.

I have seen more dead #2 rods bearings than #3.
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RHough
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Re: Carrera 2 replica engine for the Ghia - Choices

Post by RHough » Thu Jun 30, 2016 9:12 am

I'm setting up shop to pull the engine next week and find out how bad the damage is.

I'm going to assume it is oil pressure related and that the 1.5 Quart CB Products http://www.cbperformance.com/ProductDet ... tCode=1770 and 3 quarts of oil was not the right combo. I have been running three quarts in the engine that gets to the fill line on the stock dipstick to keep the oil out of the crank's path. Maybe if I had run 4 quarts in the system It would have lived.

While I have it torn down and I'm super paranoid about the oiling...

A CB Dry Sump system? I don't need/want a big increase in capacity. Does anyone know how much oil the autostick reservoir held? No reason that a dry sump system can't have nearly the same capacity as the stock setup.

I have a 2 quart Accusump system coming for the car. The system uses a OP switch that trips if the pressure drops below 20 PSI. I'm going to wire a big ass light and an alarm buzzer to the system so I know if/when the car has OP surges.

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RHough
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Re: Carrera 2 replica engine for the Ghia - Choices

Post by RHough » Thu Jun 30, 2016 9:37 am

I'm talking with CSP about an airbox to quiet the intake. They don't think the beetle unit will fit. So I asked if I can buy just the carb end fittings build my own. CSP are also bringing a new outlet pipe into production to kill the Python drone by getting the exhaust out from under the car.

They asked for more photos and a spec sheet for the car for their FB page. 8)

I really like CSP stuff.

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Re: Carrera 2 replica engine for the Ghia - Choices

Post by FJCamper » Mon Jul 04, 2016 5:02 pm

Hi Randy,

CSP stuff is excellent.

Now, to your oiling failure. I hate to ask, but you did have the extended pickup tube securely attached into your deep sump?

Another engine killing detail is foreign matter or material (excess sealant, bits of paper, rag, whatever) sucked up into the pickup, mulched through the pump, and distributed into and past the oil pressure relief valve so that the engine case oil channels become restricted.

A very careful inspection on tear down will show this. Blowing high pressure air into the engine case oil cooler inlet (hole closest to the distributor) will dislodge debris in the inner channels.

FJC

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Re: Carrera 2 replica engine for the Ghia - Choices

Post by Fiatdude » Tue Jul 05, 2016 12:40 am

I run a single TB and love it -- you can put the injectors anywhere you want on the way to the head that makes it easy ,,, you can run sequential or batch fire on the injectors too (batch fire uses a injector about half the flow as a seq. one) -- -- you can hit the pick-a-part and get a TB off any 4 cyl or 6 cyl engine andthey will work fine -- The GM models are sometimes preferred... ask your FI supplier which one they think works best with their system.....

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RHough
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Re: Carrera 2 replica engine for the Ghia - Choices

Post by RHough » Fri Jul 08, 2016 8:32 pm

#3 Rod Bearing is toasted.

The engine is locked close to TDC on #1. With the cases loose I can sort of rock the crank back and forth but not enough to pull the wrist pins in #2 & 4.

Any ideas short of cutting the pistons off the rods? :shock:

Oil pickup was sealed and tight.

Feeling pretty bummed out at the moment. Those look like Chromoly I-beam rods to you? They have vw cast in the caps.
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Re: Carrera 2 replica engine for the Ghia - Choices

Post by Piledriver » Fri Jul 08, 2016 8:36 pm

Those look like stock T1 rods and probably bolts, has the 311xx part# forged in.
I don't recall VW having made CrMo rods....
I'd be curious how round the big ends of the rest are.

Other common causes failures of rod bearings is INsufficient bearing clearance, or stretched/ovaled big ends (the wrong way) that results in ~the same thing, clearance goes to zero at the sides and it grabs and spins.

It's already broken, so you technically can't break it, right?
You probably arent going to break it any worse, put a big wrench or bar on the flywheel across the pressure plate bolts and just crank it over. Rge rod bearing is probably partially welded to the rod, but that's junk anyway.

Strap the case down to a pallet or something and rock the crank back and forth.

Put the jugs back on first so the piston skirts don't dork the cylinder seating surfaces or get borken when it does "let go". The pistons and jugs probably survived.
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Re: Carrera 2 replica engine for the Ghia - Choices

Post by sideshow » Fri Jul 08, 2016 9:51 pm

Stock rods are near the best rods made, and I-beam. That crank isn't stock and with as seized as it is I doubt that either is savable.
I agree that the top end might be ok, if you don't wreck that on disassembly.
Yeah some may call it overkill, but you can't have too much overkill.

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Re: Carrera 2 replica engine for the Ghia - Choices

Post by RHough » Fri Jul 08, 2016 10:40 pm

Crank is supposed to be a CroMo full counterweighted 74mm stroker. Rods were supposed to be CroMo I beams. New AS41 Case. I would like to save the case since it has been clearanced for the crank and rods. I went with a built long block because I didn't have the tools, time, or experience to build a 130 HP engine. Now it looks like I should have done it myself the first time.

After reading a bunch of threads on oil systems I'm wondering about the choice of a small deep sump that uses an angle cut pickup tube. Loose the deep sump and go dry sump is my plan for round two.

Dry sump brings up other questions... Like pulley size for cooling and heat...

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Re: Carrera 2 replica engine for the Ghia - Choices

Post by FJCamper » Sat Jul 09, 2016 12:23 am

Hi Randy,

At the danger of over-thinking the failure, rods 2 and 4 get the best oiling, as they are on the immediate receiving end of the initial cold oil coming from the pressure relief valve, and benefit both from the cold-oil and hot oil mix in the temperature transition, and at operating temp, get cooled oil from the oil cooler routing via center of the main oil gallery, plus whatever overflow from the pressure relief valve piston that can get by.

The grooved 1500S piston allows more overflow mix. The single solid piston flow is either on or off, with the exception of pressure fluctuations that allow it to open and close.

Rods 1 and 3 get the least oiling (3 getting the very least), fed only by the main oil galley. Any drop of loss of oil pressure affects them the most. The flywheel-end oil pressure control valve attempts to regulate pressure on the rod 1 and 3 "far end" by providing better pressure control in that direction.

If you suffered a genuine oiling failure (as opposed to a mechanical or assembly failure), it could have been a stuck oil pressure relief valve, a full-flow oil filter hooked up backwards (in and out reversed) excess oil foaming, or even internal bleeding where the oil pump fits into the case and the oil passages don't match up right. A restricted oil cooler is a key culprit. And they can be defective right out of the box.

The reversed in/out oil filter lines are diabolical. Easy to do, gives good oil pressure at idle, but decreasing oil pressure as you rev.

What was your cold idle pressure?

Typical readings should be 60 to 80 psi cold, then a drop to about 40 as you warm up, and 20 psi or less at hot idle.

Do you recall seeing your oil warning light flicker at times it shouldn't?

FJC

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Re: Carrera 2 replica engine for the Ghia - Choices

Post by Piledriver » Sat Jul 09, 2016 1:32 am

sideshow wrote:Stock rods are near the best rods made, and I-beam. That crank isn't stock and with as seized as it is I doubt that either is savable.
I agree that the top end might be ok, if you don't wreck that on disassembly.

:cry: Stock T1 rods... They are great in a stock engine, but ~1040 steel is remotely not up to what the even same design would be strength wise in CrMo. I know they may HOLD to 7500 RPM in a drag engine, but they won't go 50K miles like that.

Assuming they WERE actually new and properly spec;d, it could have been a typical Chinese crank issue, bit too large, and won't be caught by a typical high volume "engine assembler", an "engine builder" will actually measure everything...
... of course there's a dozen other potential issues so its all guessing unless you find a dead june bug or wad of filter material on top of the pressure relief valve.

As to the "great" stock rods... 2..1L WBXs (94x76, ~same forging as T1 based on forged in 311 part#) usually have oval rod big ends and dynamic oil pressure warning system freaking out by 80K miles, assuming they hadn''t ventilated the case already due to the big ends ovaling out.. Folks blame the stretch bolts but that won't help the big ends stretching out.

The 1.9 (94x69) same rod, no bottom end issues, tended to last ~forever or until they overheated due to corrosion induced coolant loss at the head/case rubber seal.

Note these engines probably never saw north of 5K, nor high-G turns (Vanagon) , and carried ~5 quarts of oil anyway.
...and they didn't have the T1 harmonic crank flex issue due to added mass to the cranks large webs. (they were sort of "factory" counterweighted cranks)
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Re: Carrera 2 replica engine for the Ghia - Choices

Post by Fiatdude » Sat Jul 09, 2016 2:05 pm

Look at trying to remove the rod bolts vs. the wrist pin -- -- take a picture of your problem and post it -- remove the rods that you can and see if that helps -- -- Those look like stock rods to me too... I've had to cut a few rods in seized engines to get the engine apart.....

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RHough
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Re: Carrera 2 replica engine for the Ghia - Choices

Post by RHough » Sat Jul 09, 2016 2:44 pm

Frank,
Engine has about 55 total hours. Oil pressure is 10psi per 1000 rpm at 180 deg oil temp. Hot Idle pressure is 10+. When my instructor was driving I was watching the oil pressure and air/fuel ratio and never saw any indication of an oil pressure problem. The gauge is dampened so I might have missed a momentary drop. 5000+ RPM the pressure was always around 40.

If I turn the crank backwards to break it loose so I can get at the wrist pins am I likely to damage anything that I can save by cutting the #2 piston off the rod so I can get the right side case off? The #2 piston is close to BDC so I can't get at the rod to remove rod nuts or cut the rod.

92mm pistons and cylinders are cheaper than prepping new cases. If the cases are likely ruined now I don't have to worry.

What response should I expect from my engine supplier after finding the stock VW rods?

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Re: Carrera 2 replica engine for the Ghia - Choices

Post by FJCamper » Sat Jul 09, 2016 9:34 pm

Hi Randy,

Go ahead and cut if it will save other damage.

You know stock rods can be "race prepped" and serve very well, but that does not make them chromoly. If you have it in writing you were charged for chromoly rods, I'd reduce the drama by just saying "I found these stock rods in my engine after an oiling failure, how about you give me a set of chromoly rods and we call it even?"

I am really sorry you've had this problem as I understand this engine meant a lot to you.

If you do dry sump, we've discovered a 3-gallon cylindrical tank fits nice in the spot (if the Ghia were a Bug) where the battery would be. We decked our rear jump seat over neatly with sheet metal and allow the top of the tank (filler cap) to protrude.

No drainback on level ground.

FJC

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