Carrera 2 replica engine for the Ghia - Choices

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RHough
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Carrera 2 replica engine for the Ghia - Choices

Post by RHough » Sat Aug 16, 2014 7:27 pm

I've pulled the trigger on a new engine for the Ghia. Planned use is hooligan street, Autocross, and the occasional lapping day at the track. (I like driving the car on the street too much to make a race car out of it.)

I'm getting a 92x74 1968cc "Mini-Stroker" from ACN: http://vwparts.aircooled.net/Aircooled- ... -block.htm

Engle 110 cam
Weber 40mm IDF's (28mm venturis)
Bugpack 1 5/8" Street Max merged header with dual mufflers. (A-1 has an indeterminate wait time. I can't find a CSP Python for a Ghia this side of Germany)

The last bit is choice for cylinder heads. Ported and Polished L3's with 35/32 valves or P&P L5's with 40/35 valves.

The L5's valve sizes match the sizes Porsche used for the Carrera 2 ... so I'd have a poor man's Carrera 2 engine in my Ghia.

I initially asked for L3's since the engine is not going to be a 5000+ RPM screamer ... clean midrange should be more fun to drive and just as quick on an Autocross course.

If I change to the L5 heads I loose a little bit below 4000 and gain a bit above 4000 ...

If I decide to go for more top end I think I can toss 44mm IDF's on the car with bigger venturis and get near to the 130 HP / 125 lbft that a real Carrera 2 put out.

I guess the questions for the collective are:
Do you see any downside to the bigger valves?
What compression ratio shall I ask for? I'm thinking 9.0:1
Is there a 'better' choice for a fun street cam?

Cheers,
Randy

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Re: Carrera 2 replica engine for the Ghia - Choices

Post by Piledriver » Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:02 pm

Are you going to attempt to duplicate the twincams fan housing etc as well?

There might be some good pics or info on the archived AircooledTechnology forums.

The thickwall 92s are a good choice, but if you are staying NA I'd probably go with the 94s, THEN go with the L5s.
The bigger bore/stroke is essentially free...

I'm building a 74mm stroker, but that setup is an extreme outlier... On a T1 it makes far less sense for performance and economically.
Last edited by Piledriver on Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RHough
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Re: Carrera 2 replica engine for the Ghia - Choices

Post by RHough » Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:24 pm

Piledriver wrote:Are you going to attempt to duplicate the twincams fan housing etc as well?

There might be some good pics or info on the archived AircooledTechnology forums.
I've thought about it but I have great faith in the standard VW tin and cooler. If there is a source of Porsche look tin that works as well (and supports heaters) available I will certainly consider it. For now my feeling is that the OEM tin, doghouse, t-stat etc is darn well engineered. I'd go for looks for equal or better performance, but not sub-par cooling or heat.

Image

This is a CSP setup ... 1600 Euro + shipping ... and I don't see output for a heater.

Cheers,

Randy

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Re: Carrera 2 replica engine for the Ghia - Choices

Post by FJCamper » Mon Aug 18, 2014 7:31 pm

Hi Randy,

I admire your engine configuraton.

The 110 cam would make a capable and strong street engine, but the 120 would be more in keeping with the "feel" of the Carrera 2, and still be streetable. I'm not writing this from supposition. The 4-cam engines were still pulling and making power where the pushrod engines had already peaked on the power curve. The 120 would give you that extra RPM at the top of the power curve.

We are working on a 4-cam look-alike fan housing here at RetroRacing. I have in fact just designed and proofed the internal air guides and deflectors. We're using the center-mount shroud, which if you buy one, has no air guide system in it.

The right carbs here are Weber or HPMX 44's. The 40's will not feed the upper RPM range. Have you checked the venturi sizes of the Carrera 2 engines?

I'm not trying to talk you into escalation of the project, but something more accurate in feel and response to the original engine.

Your current parts picks will still make a very nice and entertaining ride, but the 120 cam and 44 Webers will give you that six-grand snarl that means the beast is loose.

FJC

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Glenn
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Re: Carrera 2 replica engine for the Ghia - Choices

Post by Glenn » Mon Aug 18, 2014 9:50 pm

Not sure who made it, but this Speedster kit has a reproduction Carrera 4 cam fan housing... not cheap. Engine is a 2110 Type 1 case.
Image

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Re: Carrera 2 replica engine for the Ghia - Choices

Post by FJCamper » Mon Aug 18, 2014 10:42 pm

Hi Glenn -- and Randy;

Reproduction fan housing? Wow, that thing is nice.

We're just going for the look, center-mounted alternator and single fan, so it will be compatible with stock VW cylinder head tin. The right way to do it would be two fans, and air openings on both sides.

Anyway, Randy, the 4-cam 2-litre 2000 GS engine, 92x74, had stock double-barrel 40 PII-2 Solexes and had 36mm venturis. The optional race-only 46 IDM-2 Webers used 40mm venturis!

FJC

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Re: Carrera 2 replica engine for the Ghia - Choices

Post by RHough » Tue Aug 19, 2014 12:13 am

FJCamper wrote:Hi Randy,

I admire your engine configuraton.

The 110 cam would make a capable and strong street engine, but the 120 would be more in keeping with the "feel" of the Carrera 2, and still be streetable. I'm not writing this from supposition. The 4-cam engines were still pulling and making power where the pushrod engines had already peaked on the power curve. The 120 would give you that extra RPM at the top of the power curve.

We are working on a 4-cam look-alike fan housing here at RetroRacing. I have in fact just designed and proofed the internal air guides and deflectors. We're using the center-mount shroud, which if you buy one, has no air guide system in it.

The right carbs here are Weber or HPMX 44's. The 40's will not feed the upper RPM range. Have you checked the venturi sizes of the Carrera 2 engines?

I'm not trying to talk you into escalation of the project, but something more accurate in feel and response to the original engine.

Your current parts picks will still make a very nice and entertaining ride, but the 120 cam and 44 Webers will give you that six-grand snarl that means the beast is loose.

FJC
You are absolutely right. I am very hesitant to build a car that is highly strung. If I want something perkier after driving this engine for a year I can always change the cam and intake. I'm hoping the 110 and 40's will be a good match. I'm hoping the engine will be entertaining enough to make autocross fun. If I like it and can learn to drive well enough to use more HP I can always change the cam and intake.

This is a learning experience in tuning to see if I still enjoy it. Part of the choice was to give myself a high probability of success. I know I'm being conservative with this engine.

If there is a next round, it will be EFI rather than bigger carbs with a goal of a 160HP engine with nice manners. I don't think a 160HP 1968cc engine should be that hard to build.

I'm looking forward to a driver training session in September and doing 2 or 3 events before I go south for the winter to race sailboats.

Cheers,
Randy

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Re: Carrera 2 replica engine for the Ghia - Choices

Post by carl4x4 » Tue Aug 19, 2014 2:29 am

I run 40 IDF's at the moment with 28mm venturis on a 1955cc stroker engine, the heads are 40/35. So similar to what you're looking at buying. The car is really nice and torquey (when the carbs behave themselves) but I strongly suspect it's got more up the top end to give than the 28mm venturis are letting it. The rolling road shows 95 bhp and a nice flat 125lbft torque curve with as predicted power running out towards the top end.

I'm looking into fuel injection at the moment, but if I was keeping the carbs I'd move to 32 or 34mm venturis which of course would mean a complete re-jet and I'm not sure I want to go through the hassle and expense of that if I'm ditching the carbs.
Driving around the local hills she pulls like a train from low revs, even up steep inclines so you shouldn't be disappointed :-)

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Re: Carrera 2 replica engine for the Ghia - Choices

Post by FJCamper » Tue Aug 19, 2014 6:22 pm

Hi Randy,

The 28mm vents and 110 cam will work together just fine, and low-end torque is always a slalom advantage.

Just to show that I'm not advocating a "do-as-I-say" as opposed to "do-as-I-do," We race HSR Roebling Road in late October, with our period correct 1965 Carrera Panamerica Ghia. Really a 1600cc, single barrel Solexes (Kadrons, almost identical to the 1950's era Porsche Solexes), no dry sump just a windage tray, swing axle, camber compensator, and stock front axle beam -- no negative camber. And steel wheels.

We are going to meet the 356's, Triumphs, and MG's on their own terms.

Our tricks are front disk brakes, ported heads, a 110 cam, and 30mm venturis. Porsche Supers ran 29mm vents.

Then, in early December, we take this same car to a Sebring 12 Hour also sponsored by HSR.

FJC

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Re: Carrera 2 replica engine for the Ghia - Choices

Post by Fiatdude » Tue Aug 19, 2014 6:46 pm

Wow -- -- -- I almost hesitant to open my mouth here,,,,, but here goes (remember this is coming from a guy with a turbo'd 2989 in his Ghia) -- --

For driving around town there is nothing -- NOTHING -- like a big engine, I'm talking 2200 to 2400 cc -- -- you get the really nice torque curve that just makes life GOOD lol -- -- and for low speed tight tracks -- TORQUE BABY -- Now I've been around some big cam'd big engines and with the correct choice we're talking heavenly music -- -- My current cam of choice is a FK44 (Engle 125) with 1.4 rockers or a CB2248 for something smaller LOL for a NA big engine -- but then you have to make a good head choice like one of the CB big valve cnc'd heads that are ready to rock-n-roll --

I know I went real conservative on my new cam and I'm really regretting it right now, it starts laying down at 5700, right when I'm wanting to really start cooking LOL -- (Of course I'm still over 200HP from 4500 to 6500 at low boost)

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Re: Carrera 2 replica engine for the Ghia - Choices

Post by FJCamper » Tue Aug 19, 2014 10:21 pm

Gentlemen,

We don't have a disagreement here, just a difference in taste and expectation. A good big engine will beat a good little engine any day. The point is what we owner/drivers want the engine to be and do.

We're human beings with hopes and opinions. We love these cars, like we love women, we love what we want them to be, not always what they are.

Only one thing is for sure. The bulls**t stops when the green flag drops.

FJC

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Re: Carrera 2 replica engine for the Ghia - Choices

Post by Fiatdude » Wed Aug 20, 2014 10:02 am

Randy -- Just to muddy the waters a little more,,,, One example you might like at is Don Pauter's Ghia -- this is a super car -- it has one of his 3400cc engines in it with 911 style cooling..... He drives the heck out of it and I think he just took it to hot summer nights in Reno for about the 10th time..... ((I've just about got him talked into putting a turbo on it LMAO))

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RHough
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Re: Carrera 2 replica engine for the Ghia - Choices

Post by RHough » Wed Aug 20, 2014 10:31 am

I understand that cars are like lovers. We all enjoy them but thank goodness we don't all want the same one!
Part of me likes likes little engines that like to rev and will hurt themselves if you let them. I also enjoy big engines that get it done with massive torque everywhere. 1600 to 2000 cc is a sweet spot for 4 cylinder engines IMO that bias (right or wrong) was one consideration. That it was the size Porsche used was another. It seems like every possible displacement has its champion. It's very confusing for a newcomer.

One thing that FJC mentioned was the venturi size Porsche used. There is always the option of going to big venturis in the 40's to wake up the top end. Would be a fun tuning challenge too.

Cheers
Randy

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Re: Carrera 2 replica engine for the Ghia - Choices

Post by RHough » Thu Aug 28, 2014 12:36 pm

I have the Webers on ...

After twice the time and triple the hassle I have new webers and exhaust installed on the Ghia.

I wanted to get the fuel system and linkage etc. sorted before the new engine gets here. Removing the stock carb and manifold meant either blocking the heat riser ports or swapping out the exhaust ... so I decided to install the new exhaust too.

Off to a good start the engine was on the floor in 18 minutes ... not bad for old guys with bad backs.

Got the fan shroud loose and the intake off with no hassles then found out that the weber manifolds interfere with the cooling tin. Basically had to remove all the tin to get the top cylinder tins off and had to cut the tin out around the plug access holes to get the manifolds on.

We mocked everything up and got the CSP linkage ballpark close.
Moved the fuel intake and idle stop screw to make a "left" carb. (the return spring kit is on order to complete the conversion to left)
Set the air correctors to 1/2 off the seats.
Set the idle mixtures to 2 1/2 turns off the seats
Set the idle speed screws to just touching +1/2 turn

Installed the 1 5/8" Bugpack StreetMax merged header with a dual muffler using new heater boxes. Fit seems good except that the #4 exhaust tube blocks the access to the fresh air hose on the left side ... who needs a driver's side defroster in Canada?

After cranking long enough to fill the bowls the engine coughed to life and ran like crap.

127 year old engine team had neglected to put all the plug wires back on after installing left manifold (removed to get engine into car).

Much better with all 4 running!

Played with sync and mixture to get close then dialed it in. The air correctors 1/2 turn off the seat allowed me to get the flow matched on all 4 throats. Lean best idle rinse and repeat until I have a solid 800 - 1000 RPM idle.

Weber Kit from CB (through Air Cooled Net)
Pros
Kit fit Ghia as advertised
New Carb clean and set from ACN seems to be right on. No drivability issues.

Cons
NO instructions. Thus no hint that the tin would require modification.
Should the extra $$$ to clean, jet, and setup new carbs include making one of them a 'left' carb? Should that be at least mentioned somewhere?

Bugpack StreetMax Header and Dual Quiet Pack Muffler
Pros
Good looks and fit* (silver ceramic coated)

Cons
#4 Header tube blocks access for heater fresh air tube.

Last.

What causes a snap/crackle/pop in the exhaust on engine overrun? The exhaust sounds good (not too loud) under load. I get a pop when shifting up and it pops and crackles on decel or going down a grade on compression. Normal for a too big header? Is there an adjustment I should look at?

EDIT: I double checked a few things, set timing and went through the lean best idle +1/4 turn rich tune again. Rechecked sync and set the idle to about 900 RPM. The snail shows "3" on every barrel so I think that is as good as it is going to get. I've dead where people have 5+ on a snail tool at idle ... could the 3 I'm seeing be tired engine? I can't not fuss with the car ... so this is on the old stock engine. No/little pop between shifts driving briskly (is the any other way?). Lots of crackling and popping under compression. Tried to block exhaust to locate leaks ... the system is a sieve ... the engine idles just fine with the exhaust plugged ... takes way too long to react to having the exhaust pipes blocked. I think the Snap/Crackle/Pop is something I'll have to live with until the new engine is ready.

Cheers,

Randy

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RHough
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Re: Carrera 2 replica engine for the Ghia - Choices

Post by RHough » Thu Aug 28, 2014 6:59 pm

Looking forward and wanting to get parts lined up ...

What changes to the Carbs should I expect to make when the 1968 goes in?

Weber IDF40's
28mm Venturi
F11 Emulsion Tubes
50 Idle Jets
115 Mains
200 Airs

Carbs were setup and jetted for stock engine at sea level by ACN.

I'm toying with either selling the 40's and going with 44's or going with bigger venturis on the 40's when I put the new engine in.

I can go up to 36mm venturis on the 40's to get the top end out of the 1968.

Any clue to jetting on the IDF 40's with big venturis? Am I asking for trouble compared to getting 44's and starting from there?

Cheers,
Randy

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