Solutions for mechanical issues

Discuss with fans and owners of the most luxurious aircooled sedan/wagon that VW ever made, the VW 411/412. Official forum of Tom's Type 4 Corner.
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tuna
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Solutions for mechanical issues

Post by tuna » Wed Mar 23, 2005 11:59 am

It has become apparent that as our numbers grow, many of the 411 and 412 owners are encountering the same mechanical problems. Chances are though that someone else has solved the issue and their experience might save us all a lot of time.

So, this is your chance to share your experiences with visitors of our forum. Did you just rebuild the struts on your 411/412? Overhaul the transaxle? Rewire the dash? Reupholster the interior? All of these are examples of the things that we are looking for in this thread.

Make sure you mention vendors where you got parts, part numbers if possible, and include your name and email. Someone may want to contact you for further information.

If you are not sure if your idea is what we are looking for, feel free to start another thread and ask. You can also email me at t4corner@tunacan.net and I will assist you in any way I can.

Disclaimer: In an effort to provide the best information and to deliver it in a clear and concise manner, the moderator reserves the right to edit the posts for grammar, spelling, content, and to delete posts that don't follow the spirit of this thread. The moderator also reserves the right to add comments to further aid the clarity of the post.

Well, get the posts coming and hopefully this will help every 411/412 owner out there.

Tuna
http://vdubgeek.blogspot.com/
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hammonsw
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Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2005 9:15 pm

411 body repair

Post by hammonsw » Fri Mar 25, 2005 9:24 pm

Ineed help getting the chrome off from around the wheel weld on my 411 sedan. I'm in the process of painting and the chrome should come off to get a really good job. Is there a special tool to remove the clamps?

albert
Posts: 834
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 5:08 pm

removing chrome

Post by albert » Fri Mar 25, 2005 10:20 pm

no HAMMONSW , the only good tools for to remoove the clips is long nose pliers tool , and flat screew driver , the snap clamp is same thing ,nuts , you turn conterclock wise same thing nuts, bifore you remoove al the dirght inside the fenders , if mi mémory is good you have 5 or 6 clips for the rear fenders , and appx the same thing for the front fenders chrome , if you have many broken clips by the rust , slide smal parts of fin stanles stell and you solder with soft acid solder only solder with acid core can stic on stanles steell or électric solder (ps i change the old screw by smal cupper bold ,same size old ,) were ,you remoove the head and sold on st.st. for the gravel gard on rear fenders it is same thing you can polish the stanles steell with green pad or good sta.steel shop ,,if your chrome molding is original on your 411 she is in stanlessteel , it is not problem for to reapair but alluminium very hard , or difficult to repair , it is nécessaire to put new ,,, i thing that can help you,,,,albert

albert
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Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 5:08 pm

solution for mecanic

Post by albert » Fri Mar 25, 2005 11:06 pm

ops,,,ps,, you can change the old clip by new (all the good car parts store sale that) or plastic nuts ,,the smal stanles steell support inside the chome molding is removable by slyding or you push to the end of chrome molding ,,if she is very rust you make new with very fin stanlessteel foil no 20or 22 grade ( that is méthod for mesure deep of stanlessteell ) with the plyers tool you can bent smal st.steell support for your ajusment ,,,for me i solder the new cupper screw with soft solder before sliding in the chrome molding ,,,for that you can use élertric iron solder, or gaz torch but the st.steell come black, i prefere électric ,,,wen you use acid core solder on the stanles steell it is very important to wash with the wather afther the job is finish , acid make rust ,,

Guest

chrome removal

Post by Guest » Mon Mar 28, 2005 10:51 pm

Thanks Albert,

I was able to remove the nuts by using the sharp nose pliers as you suggested. After I was successful in getting the clips loose on the front fenders, I made myself a tool to get the others off. I took a 5/32 socket and ground a hex shape on it. Then I was able to use it as a male socket to remove the clips on the rear fenders. It worked very well.

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MGVWfan
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VW/Audi Type 003 3-speed Auto Transaxle Repair Info

Post by MGVWfan » Wed May 04, 2005 9:08 pm

This is a description of what I've learned in overhauling my '73 VW 412 Wagon's auto transaxle. YMMV. Read the whole thing before you begin. This trans is a breeze to work on, really no special tools (at least nothing you shouldn't have already), and it goes together easily. I'll be editing this post as I continue the reassembly phase over the next few weeks.

First, documentation. Take lots of pictures as you tear it down in case you forget how something goes together. Your AT might just be slightly different from everyone else's, and having a reference will help your sanity.

Second, service literature. The Bentley Type 3 book (brown) has a really great AT section, but beware, some of the stuff in there is different for T4's with the 003 AT, I'll note what I found below. The 1973 National (Mitchell) Import Transmissions master book (available in certain public library reference sections, like the one in League City, Texas) has just about as good a teardown/assembly description, and info on the differences between T2, T3, and T4 versions of the 003 AT.

Third, parts - You'll need a Master Overhaul kit, see the Vendors sticky for latest info. If the kit is from Precision International (Makco/Bulkparts sells this brand, among others), it'll be P/N K40900, and will be labelled like this on the front:

OVERHAUL KIT
PRECISION
INTERNATIONAL

K40900
003
VOLKSWAGEN/AUDI
1969-1976
(date code)

You may also find a sticker on the bag with another number on it: 265002F
OHK, 003, 1969-75
VEND:436 XREF:*******
DATE: (date the kit was picked for shipment I'm guessing) LOC: 530.902

Inside you should find (visible through the plastic bag without opening it) some white poly sub-kit bags. For all T4 003 AT's after 1970 (maybe some before), you'll need both of the following sub-kits:

SUB-K404
MISC. COMPONENTS
(date code) IS-404

SUB-K401
2ND GEAR (KICKDOWN) SERVO
(date code) IS-401

These sub-kits contain the LARGER (later) 2nd gear brake band servo piston seals. To be sure, measure the piston to see if it's the larger size, if you have a piston that measures 97mm on the largest diameter, you'll need the above. If you don't see the two above bags, call the parts supplier and ask them what to do. FYI, the date code on the kit that had the correct parts was 01129 (assuming that means the 129th day of 2001), the first kit I received didn't have a date code.

More info:

THERE ARE TWO SIZES OF 2nd GEAR SERVO PISTONS. One used up to Ch # 410 2021 954 (I'm suspecting it's Transmission Code EG), one from 410 2021 955 on (I suspect it's Code EH). The early piston seals are 68mm and 86mm diameter, the later ones are 77 and 97mm diameter (two seals on the 2nd gear servo piston).

In addition to the above, the first kit I received did not have two differential section pinion shaft seals, it only had one. To replace all seals, you need two for the pinion shaft (one is hidden until you pull the pinion shaft out, it's at the rear of the diff carrier behind the rear pinion bearing). NOTE - REAR = REAR (the end of the tranny that's at the aft end when installed in the car). The second kit had both seals. There should be 6 total seals in the kit:

Two large stub shaft seals, black or red
One large torque converter seal, red
Two medium pinion shaft seals, black
One tiny governor shaft seal, black

If you don't see two medium-sized seals, 6 total, call the parts supplier.

If you're getting more than a "Master" kit (other kits have clutches and maybe bands), you'll need to know that the T4 versions of the 003 AT have 3 friction plates and 3 steel plates, in addition to the pressure plate, in the Reverse/Direct (High) clutch (the one with all the coil springs). Other applications have fewer plates. The Forward clutch appears to be the same, as are the bands.

Use a good AUTO TRANSMISSION assembly lube, like SPX Filtran's TransJel Gold on seals and oil pump sealing rings. If you use AT assembly lube on the clutch piston seals, you should be able to coax the pistons into the drums without nicking the seals. Use a feeler gauge (something like 0.005" or thinner) to guide the seal lip into the drum, and you should have no problems.

Replace the bands and friction linings, if the trans has been on the road a while. It may seem like a waste of money, but it's a bigger waste to have to tear down a year or two down the road to replace those linings you should have earlier!

SOAK the plates and bands in Dexron overnight before assembly.

CLEAN CLEAN CLEAN! Clean the case as many times as it takes to get ALL the old grease and dirt off the outside. Any dirt that remains will, most likely, end up inside where Murphy says it'll find its way to the valve body and jam up your unobtanium valves. Don't let water get inside, use rubber plugs/stoppers on any openings. Keep yourself and your tools obsessively CLEAN. DON'T use rags or paper towels to clean stuff, use a solvent bath and compressed air to dry. Limit the compressed air pressure to 40 psi or less when drying the valve body, to keep from slamming the valves around and damaging the springs.

Use LOTS of clean new zipper storage bags, clearly labelled with what's inside, and after cleaning parts, put them back into CLEAN NEW bags (don't re-use the old dirt and oil!).

Lubricate EVERYTHING with either Dexron ATF or trans assembly lube on assembly. Keep the valves in the valve body covered with something (ATF or assembly lube) constantly, or they'll rust.

Valve body notes. When you remove the valve body to clean it, note that the Mitchell manual is correct, you should place it with the white-looking transfer plate (the smooth side of the assembly) facing up, and then slacken and remove the Philips-headed screws, and pull the transfer plate and separator plate away WHILE BEING HELD TOGETHER straight up while watching for little 6mm check balls and a spring in the valve body (the bottom half, the one with all the valves in it). I put it inside the oil pan (cleaned of course) in case a ball or spring got away while I was disassembling. Use a small magnet and remove the balls and springs while noting where they came from, and put them in CLEAN NEW bags. Now invert the transfer plate and CAREFULLY remove the separator plate, and surprise, there's a ball and spring in there, too! Make sure you bag the spring and ball immediately to keep from losing them. NOTE THAT THE BENTLEY MANUAL HAS ONE MAJOR DIFFERENCE HERE ON THE LOCATION OF CHECK BALLS! It does not show a ball and spring inside the transfer plate, as the T3 version has different check valving from both the T2 and T4 versions, and the T2 version is different from the T4, too. Note that there is one check ball that has a longer, stronger spring, it's the "Pressure Relief Valve (Forward)", shown on Page 3-63, Drawing 4VW08 in the Mitchell manual, when you look at the cavity the spring goes in, it'll be obvious due to the depth of the cavity. Be careful on reassembly to not let the balls and springs get dislodged, just reverse the process (keeping the separator plate held up against the transfer body while lowering them onto the valve body). As a double-check that you've got the check balls in the right place, the openings in the separator plate will be shiny and polished where the balls have contacted it, so you should see shiny rings where the balls contact the plate.
Last edited by MGVWfan on Sat Jun 11, 2005 11:59 am, edited 2 times in total.
Lane
73 VW 412 (the Nomad, dropped valve seat land now, argh!)
67 MGB (Abingdon's Finest)
76 Plymouth Duster /6 (runs like a top)
99 New Beetle 2.0 (never gives any trouble)
04 Golf TDI (45 MPG)
09 JSW (love it, love it, love it!)

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MGVWfan
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Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2004 11:23 pm

Schematic Diagrams Online

Post by MGVWfan » Sat May 28, 2005 9:32 am

Schematic diagrams for just about any VW through the 70's is at this site...

http://vintagebus.com/wiring/

Scroll down to the Type 4 section. The legend is in German, but the symbology makes it easy to figure out what's what, and Babelfish can translate those words you can't figure out by inspection of the diagram.
Lane
73 VW 412 (the Nomad, dropped valve seat land now, argh!)
67 MGB (Abingdon's Finest)
76 Plymouth Duster /6 (runs like a top)
99 New Beetle 2.0 (never gives any trouble)
04 Golf TDI (45 MPG)
09 JSW (love it, love it, love it!)

User avatar
MGVWfan
Posts: 825
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2004 11:23 pm

412 front strut damper rod nut remover

Post by MGVWfan » Wed Jun 01, 2005 9:23 pm

Use a 7/8" cut-away O2 sensor socket with a 1" hex on top (most important point, the socket must have a hex on the top end for this trick to work!) to loosen the damper rod nut using a 1" open end on the hex, or a crescent wrench, with a 1/4" drive 10mm 6-point socket in the middle, with a 1/4" drive 6" long extension poking out through the sensor socket drive hole plugged into whatever ratchet you want to hold the damper rod to keep it from turning.
Lane
73 VW 412 (the Nomad, dropped valve seat land now, argh!)
67 MGB (Abingdon's Finest)
76 Plymouth Duster /6 (runs like a top)
99 New Beetle 2.0 (never gives any trouble)
04 Golf TDI (45 MPG)
09 JSW (love it, love it, love it!)

User avatar
MGVWfan
Posts: 825
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2004 11:23 pm

T4 radio antenna

Post by MGVWfan » Thu Jun 02, 2005 4:15 pm

If your car has the original VW dealer-type oval hole in the left front fender near the door, you can use a standard 67-79 VW Beetle antenna as sold by many places. There was no "T4 specific" antenna. Here's a reference to the antenna in question...

http://www.wolfsburgwest.com/cart/Detai ... fm?ID=ZVW7

I'm not advertising for the place, they just happened to have a decent picture of the antenna!
Lane
73 VW 412 (the Nomad, dropped valve seat land now, argh!)
67 MGB (Abingdon's Finest)
76 Plymouth Duster /6 (runs like a top)
99 New Beetle 2.0 (never gives any trouble)
04 Golf TDI (45 MPG)
09 JSW (love it, love it, love it!)

User avatar
MGVWfan
Posts: 825
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2004 11:23 pm

411/412 Front Strut and Spring Dimensions

Post by MGVWfan » Fri Jun 03, 2005 10:52 am

The following are measurements from an OE front strut off an August 1973 production 412 Variant, along with measurements from a KYB KC4017 replacement strut cartridge. The last bit is a regurgitation of the stock spring parameters from the Haynes manual.

Bump Stop Spacer Bushing:

2.4785" long overall
1.100" outside diameter (top)
1.257" outside diameter (bottom)
1.117" from top to step in outside
1.359" from step in outside to bottom
0.553" inside diameter top
0.874" inside diameter bottom
2.021" long from top to inside step
0.467" long from inside step to bottom

Top plug = 0.57" thick (KYB KC4017), 0.782" thick (OE damper)
KYB plug is 0.312" thinner than OE, and requires at least 5/32 of shim to keep it from moving up and down against the strut tube fixing nut.

Rod dimensions:

Top of rod - 0.543" diameter (KYB), 0.546" diameter (OE)
Bottom of rod - 0.863" (KYB), 0.864" (OE)

Rod Holding Flats - two 0.4" (KYB), six 0.394" (OE), 10mm hex (OE), 10mm open end (KYB), length of holding area 0.433" (KYB and OE)

Thread Length - 0.845" (KYB), 0.82" (OE)

Rod Length from Spring Seat Step to Bottom of Threads - 3.412" (KYB), 3.100" (OE)

Strut Tube ID - 1.893" (top), wall 0.101" thick (bottom), 0.075" (top)
Main Strut Tube Diameter - 1.691"

Spring Info

Blue paint spots, VW P/N 411 411 105 OSRB73

8.5 turns total
16.75" unloaded
Wire diameters - Ends 0.405" tapering to 0.485" in the middle coils
5.5" OD

Spring Info from the Haynes 411/412 manual...

Yellow springs (up to Aug 72):
Effective Coils - 6.5
Wire Diameter - 12.35mm
Coil Diameter - 129mm
Length Unloaded - 392mm

Blue springs (from Aug 72 on)
Effective Coils - 6.5
Wire Diameter - 10.3mm to 12.25mm (tapered wire)
Coil Diameter - 129mm
Length Unloaded - 441mm
Lane
73 VW 412 (the Nomad, dropped valve seat land now, argh!)
67 MGB (Abingdon's Finest)
76 Plymouth Duster /6 (runs like a top)
99 New Beetle 2.0 (never gives any trouble)
04 Golf TDI (45 MPG)
09 JSW (love it, love it, love it!)

User avatar
MGVWfan
Posts: 825
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2004 11:23 pm

Oil Pressure Relief Valve Plug - What fits the socket?

Post by MGVWfan » Sat Jun 04, 2005 8:42 pm

A 3/8" drive extension bar end will fit the 12-point triple-square plug for the oil pressure relief valve under #1 cylinder on the side of the case.
Lane
73 VW 412 (the Nomad, dropped valve seat land now, argh!)
67 MGB (Abingdon's Finest)
76 Plymouth Duster /6 (runs like a top)
99 New Beetle 2.0 (never gives any trouble)
04 Golf TDI (45 MPG)
09 JSW (love it, love it, love it!)

User avatar
MGVWfan
Posts: 825
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2004 11:23 pm

Tie rod end jam nut

Post by MGVWfan » Tue Jun 14, 2005 7:27 pm

If you lose one of the tie rod end jam nuts, they're 14mm - 1.5 thread, bigger than what the hardware store usually has in their metric fasteners. I found a lug nut at my FLAPS that was similar. With some grinding to eliminate the flared end, it'll be identical.
Lane
73 VW 412 (the Nomad, dropped valve seat land now, argh!)
67 MGB (Abingdon's Finest)
76 Plymouth Duster /6 (runs like a top)
99 New Beetle 2.0 (never gives any trouble)
04 Golf TDI (45 MPG)
09 JSW (love it, love it, love it!)

User avatar
MGVWfan
Posts: 825
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2004 11:23 pm

T4 Turn/Park/Stop/etc. P/N's

Post by MGVWfan » Mon Mar 02, 2009 12:08 pm

All are US-spec unless noted. Advise me of additions/corrections and I'll edit.

Front Left Housing:
1973 412 - VW 411953101 D/E/F, Hella TVK8 L
1970 up 411* - VW 411953101C, Hella xxxx

Front Right Housing:
1973 412 - VW 411953102 D/E/F, Hella TVK8 R
1970 up 411* - VW 411953102C, Hella xxxx

Front Left Lens:
1973 412 - VW 411953141E +, Hella TVK8 L
1970 up 411* - VW 410953141C, Hella MRMBLPo242 L

Front Right Lens:
1973 412 - VW 411953142E +, Hella TVK8 R
1970 up 411* - VW 410953142C, Hella MRMBLPo242 R

Left or Right Rear Housing:
1973 412 2/4 Door Sedan - VW 411945232D, Hella xxxx
1973 412 Wagon - VW 461945231C, Hella xxxx
1970 up 411 2/4 Door Sedan and Wagon* - VW 411945231A, Hella xxxx

Left or Right Rear MARKER AND BACKUP Lenses:
1973 412 2/4 Door Sedan - VW 411945452-1, Hella xxxx
1973 412 Wagon - VW 461945452-1, Hella xxxx
1970 up 411 2/4 Door Sedan and Wagon* - VW 411945452-1, Hella xxxx

Left or Right Rear TURN Lenses:
1973 412 2/4 Door Sedan - VW 411945454D-3D, Hella xxxx
1973 412 Wagon - VW 461945453A, Hella xxxx
1970 up 411 2/4 Door Sedan and Wagon* - VW 411945453C, Hella xxxx

* = from Chassis Number 410 2000 001
+ = non-US-spec is suffixed D (i.e., 411953141D for non-US left) thanks Herr_Sparky!
Lane
73 VW 412 (the Nomad, dropped valve seat land now, argh!)
67 MGB (Abingdon's Finest)
76 Plymouth Duster /6 (runs like a top)
99 New Beetle 2.0 (never gives any trouble)
04 Golf TDI (45 MPG)
09 JSW (love it, love it, love it!)

gcastrog
Posts: 1
Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2013 12:01 pm

Re: Solutions for mechanical issues

Post by gcastrog » Sun Oct 13, 2013 12:24 pm

Hello,

My project is to modify and rebuild the type 4 engine fuel injected of my bus. Since the fuel injected system is just to expensive to maintain and trouble for me to keep up with, I have decided that the rebuild will have a single carburetor (I like simplicity... two carburetors will add more work). After reading, I have concluded that I prefer to go with solid lifters. Also, I read that the camshaft must match the lifters in many ways. So, now I purchased a new vw camshaft, 021 109 019 M (-1), and a set a new vw solid lifters.

Now, comes my question. I have read that these engines don't work well with a carburetor system and stock vw camshaft. The argument is that the stock camshaft was designed for fuel injected systems; the engine will run too hot with this set up. Definitely, I do NOT want a fuel injected system. The engine will be a 2.0 liter. and the set up will a "normal". I want an engine that will work without troubles; I don't care if it does not achieve a high horse power performance. I am not looking for a racing engine. Just a good working engine that will last many miles. So, do you guys believe that the stock camshaft will not work well for my project? If the answer is yes, what camshaft and lifter combo should a consider for a good working, stock, and stable type 4 2.0 liter single carburetor engine?

Thanks for reading!

Gonzalo.

User avatar
MGVWfan
Posts: 825
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2004 11:23 pm

Rear Fender Removal 412 Variant (Wagon)

Post by MGVWfan » Sun May 11, 2014 4:33 pm

I needed to remove the rear fenders on my 73 412 Variant to de-rust and re-paint, and could not find instructions for removal. My old Clymer manual has rear fender removal instructions for the sedans, but not the Variant...so, here's what I found.

Aft = toward the rear of the car, Outboard = toward the outside of the car, Inboard = toward the inside of the car, Forward = toward the front of the car.

The rear fenders are held on by six sets of fasteners/devices:

1. A Philips head bolt and a Philips sheet metal screw facing aft under the liftgate
2. A 10mm hex head bolt accessible through the rear stop/park lamp housing opening
3. Three 10mm hex head bolts under the aft luggage compartment trim board
4. A Philips head bolt inside the front curve of the top of the inner fender lip
5. Three (REALLY screwy) stainless steel wheel arch trim fasteners, and
6. A hook welded to the bodywork on the very forward end of the rear fender, and a second hook at the top forward corner welded to the bodywork

A. Remove the two aft-facing screws in (1).
B. Remove the left (or right) taillamp lens, then the housing. Look inside to the right on the right rearmost opening, or left on the left rearmost opening, you'll see a 10mm hex head cap screw head positioned aft of the supporting sheet metal slightly lower than the midpoint of the opening. Slacken and remove the 10mm cap screw. I had to use a universal joint on the 10mm socket to get the right angle.
C. Start carefully popping the trim board off the left or right side of the rear luggage compartment (rear load area). The board is most likely fragile, so run a screwdriver close to the wire-spring fasteners and carefully pop them out of their holes in the bodywork. There are 4 on the top, 3 on the bottom, one just above the wheel well curve on the bottom, and one in the middle of the skinny bit above the wheel well curve. You may have some resistance from the insulation sticking to paint/rust/adhesive, go slowly and it'll come off.
D. Peel back the vinyl trim cloth at the top of the trim board (the board overlaps it). You'll see 3 square chunks of black cloth/rubber tape. Peel them off.
E. The aftmost opening will most likely have old foam-in-place insulation in it. Dig it out.
F. Now you have access to remove the fasteners in (3)
G. Find the Philips head screw inside the upper forward part of the rear wheel arch lip. It's easy to chew up the screwhead, so get a big Philips and try using penetrating oil seeped inside the fender lip, and tighten it a bit first to break the rust loose, then slacken and remove
H. Those screwy trim fasteners...you'll need something like a 5/16" hex nut soldered to the end of a hollow...something...with a handle to back the INVERTED Tinnerman nuts out that hold the lip molding on. Yes, you read that correctly, some VW engineer must have had a couple Pils too many at lunch the day he designed this trim fastener feature, the stamped sheet metal Tinnerman nuts are installed with the domed top outboard, toward the fender lip, and the concave (normally inner) side inboard. Sheesh! See the entries at the beginning of this thread for Albert's thoughts on how to get these screwy fasteners out.
I had damaged molding that could not be reused, so I just used the armstrong method to get it out...but, those three trim fasteners must come out to release the wheel lip.
I. Once all that's out, remove the rear bumper to get clearance to slide the rear fender up, and that'll release it from the forward bodywork clip.
J. Have a Bitburg Pils or three in honor of that VW engineer who made a seemingly simple job into a jolly complicated one with those inverted Tinnermans :lol: :roll: :?

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