Progress on the Nomad...

[vwfye]

the "Land of Umpqua" is the Umpqua valley in SW Oregon. Indian area... it is also known as the land of 1000 valleys.

[MGVWfan]

Thanks!

[vwfye]

lane, great info you posted! thanks a heap!!!! i will check my coils when i get home and see if they are tapered or not. it seems that will really effect other issues. man, learning is fun

[MGVWfan]

I found the blue paint spots (2) about two turns from one end, not sure which. That'll tell you what you have without measuring.

[vwbill]

Great info post!! We need to post some of that to the fixed info post for later reference! I think the front-end and the struts are some of the biggest work to deal with on our cars! Getting it right and restored using either mods from Ray or on the spot fit to work parts and materials can be frustrating; its not just parts replacement anymore! I think I assembled and disassembled the strut assembly so many times with different spacers and washers and mounts and have it close and got some reduction in the front lift but I think I might still have issues with it being too stiff! If Ray is nice and gets the time to get a drawing of how to mod. the audi ones so it is a take the audi tubes to the welder and then build up with new cart. it will be more of a bolt in and go deal I think! Thanks again for all the great post on your projects guys! Bill

[MGVWfan]

First item...I've mined Ray's old posts for strut gems, and I've found references to using the late assymetrical upper shock mount from a late 412 or Super Beetle. Since neither is still available new, and neither is currently out there in any of my local sources of supply, is there another vehicle whose upper strut mount is suitable? I know where I can lay me hands on two 88 VW Foxes (Brazilian), two mid-80's VW Quantums (is a pair of Quantums a Quanta?), a VW Cabriolet (Golf), an Audi 4000, and an Audi 5000. Ray, anyone, would any of these vehicles be good donors?

Second item...I'm going back to snag shock tubes for the "Greenwood Mod", which of the above would be the best donor for strut tubes (I'm thinking Quantum...).

Third item...I'm sitting here looking at my disassembled strut, and I'm thinking that any spacers placed BELOW the upper spring perch on the damper rod can't alter the front end height...all they can do is change the position of the damper rod for a given spring load. Even with more inital preload on the spring due to a shorter rod causing the shock to hit the fully extended stop sooner (however you get there), the same load on the spring will yield the same compression, even if part of it is preload. It looks to me like the only way to change the front end position with spacers (not cutting and welding or new struts/mounts) is...

(1) RAISE the front end with a spacer between the upper spring perch and the bottom of the upper shock mount

(2) RAISE the front end by adding spacers between the upper shock mount flange and the body

(3) RAISE the front end by adding spacers between the bottom of the strut and the top of the steering knuckle

Since I don't want to raise the front end any more than it already is , and I can't lower it by wise location of spacers...what this means is all I have to do is fabricate a spacer that keeps the rod from extending above the mount too far (to keep from hitting the hood), and fabricate a second spacer to keep the shock from moving up and down in the tube, if i want to use the KYB KC4017 oil shocks until I get the "Greenwood Mod" done. Sound about right?

Thanks for all the help and encouragement to date from Ray and VWBill and everyone! And yes Dr. Greenwood, I will do the Greenwood Mod as soon as I can, the old KYB's are only to get me to where I can drive the car and sort the rest of it out. It's so easy to pull the struts on this car compared to all the FWD MoPars I've done in the past, or my '67 Anglia. I had it done in a matter of 20 minutes after I figured out a (slightly destructive) way of pulling the balljoint stud out of the lower control arm (pickle fork ).

[vwbill]

Hey did you measure the lenght of the new strut rod fully extended?
I think I put a spacer that slide down the new rod taper to make that area longer and it fit basically inside the thick part of the stop(stop hollow part down) and eliminated the big boot cup plate and put another fox boot(I think) that fit over the stop(split edged end) and I tie wrap it to the stop and then the boot would stretch over the strut cart. cap nut and be held there from the stretch then I think I put a big flat washer(like 1-1/2") on then the top spring plate then another washer and the spacer that goes into the mount bearing under the mount then the strut mount and then nut? I think I had to base my measurement on the total rod length extended and then taper area to work for the stop. I always was working with the spring measurement from plate to plate and changing that number? Thanks for the pics of what you have. I'll have to try to relook at my pics and note and of coarse my other laptop crapped out again,lol!
Bill

[MGVWfan]

Thanks for the reply !

What you describe is what I'm planning on doing Bill. I'll come up with a spacer to slide onto the KYB shock's top rod just long enough to make the top rod protrude above the top mount no further than the original shock's top rod did. I'll make a second to go on top of the KYB shock's mount bushing inside the strut tube, so the fixing nut can clamp the shock in and keep it from moving up and down.

I'm not going to worry as much about keeping the spring compressed exactly the same as original in the fully extended condition, because the weight of the vehicle will compress the spring more once I drop the car down off the jackstands, and the amount of compression will be the same if part of it is from the spring being pre-loaded by a shorter (or longer for that matter) shock rod, or from the weight of the vehicle on the spring.

The only difference with a shorter fully extended length may be less suspension travel at full jounce, but from what I've read of past posts, this vehicle never used its full front suspension travel anyway, so that shouldn't be a problem. Fixing it would require lengthening the KYB top rod (if the travel turns out to be less), and that's not an option or me right now.

[raygreenwood]

Be careful! You are in a risky area. You are on the right tack....but there is a risk. What is needed, is a spacer...to slip down onto the early strut rod...to make the top of the strut rod look more like the late model one.

Problem with that is.....it simply allows the finshed strut to have a longer length. The length of the locked in compressed coil is set by how long the rod is when it is at full entension.

Spacers at the steering kuckle upset the castor. It makes the car wildly uncontrolled. It also will snap ball joint pins if you are now careful.

The only way I know of to use the early carts with late strut set up....and this is harder than you think......is to cut off the uneeded top pin length to bring the total strut rod length to teh same as the late one. But...you will have to re-thread the rod....very hard to do....and make a souple of new spacers.

If you are willing to do that much right now.....stop. I will e-mail you the stub modification dimensions....and if you know someone with a lathe....you can simply have the stubs made that allow you to drop the audi /quantum cartridge in. Itgs easy. Its not as elegant as what I am working on now, but is dirt simple, will level your car...give you readily available struts.....and can be done quick....and improves handling about 200%. No kidding.

The late strut bearings are readily available. Do not order them by the 412 part number. They have a housing...which is the same as late super....which can be had for cheap....and they have a seperate bushing...which identical to late super and mid years fox. And they have a seperate cartridge bearing....that is the same as uper and fox. They are cheap. Ray

[vwfye]

If you are willing to do that much right now.....stop. I will e-mail you the stub modification dimensions....and if you know someone with a lathe....you can simply have the stubs made that allow you to drop the audi /quantum cartridge in. Itgs easy. Its not as elegant as what I am working on now, but is dirt simple, will level your car...give you readily available struts.....and can be done quick....and improves handling about 200%. No kidding. Ray

Ray, I have access to a lathe and this dirt simple trick is what i am looking for! the quantum cartridge will be a 'drop in' part after the stub is made?

[MGVWfan]

I PM'd you Ray

[MGVWfan]

Interesting bit of trivia...I just found the part number for the upper strut mount (after cleaning off some dirt)...it's P/N 461 412 329A. That 461 means the upper mount was first used on the Variant...I wonder if the OE upper mounts were different on the Variants?

[raygreenwood]

I just found the drawing with measurements. I will take a pic and send it to you. The upper mount...may indeed have been first used on the variant. But I have seen them on all of the late 412's. It is in fact...the same metal shell with three bolts, used on the late super beetle...so they are a dime a dozen.
In order to use that mount, you need the little top dish as well that goes under the nut and washer. Look around. When you get the strut mounts, you will notcie that the delrin ring that is pressed onto the top edge of the mount...is usually cracked. Don't worry. Look around on golfs, Jettas and foxes..and get one of the top dishes that goes under the nut...that has the plastic ring around its edge...instead of stretched around the mont itself. you will have to clearance the center hole slightly....and drill two more mounjting holes. I am also investigating the possible use of rabbit strut bushings (two bolt)right now. But they will look odd.

Yes...it is a straight bolt in. You will simply need a couple pieces of 6" scrap pipe and some pipe caps...to make a spacer to sit under the cartrige down in the strut tube. Thats about 15 minutes. After oing some trimming to the top stub of the audi cartridge....the stub bolts right on. se lock tight, use a set screw, wire that set screw so it cannot rotate....install cartridge...done. Ray

[MGVWfan]

I want to make 100% sure you know what strut mount I have right now on the car...take a look at these links and you'll see pics of the mount I have now-

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_ ... _id=210065

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_ ... _id=210066

Is this what you're calling the "late" mount, the one that's the same as the SB?

[vwbill]

Hey, your mount looks different from my cars. I think my studs on the mount arent equal distance apart for all of them one gap is closer and the other two are the same. The spacer I got from the Depot or Lowe's drawer section actually fit sweet in the stop(almost the size of the main rod size and the same lenght of the thick part) and since the strut rod taper has that kinda splined area near the bottom it fit well even though it was of english measurement. Look in those blue drawers and I think they were the only ones close to our stuff maybe a inch and half long. Cheap too and good for testing! I was wonder if what Ray was trying to say about those strut cart. was that you can make them fit and look like you have adjusted the ride height and got them in and the spring is good lenght but since they are Gas types and they dont rebound right and cause stiff rebound causing destructiveness to the ball joints and stuff? I probably miss read that though!! I'm sure to get it on the road and no hard driving maybe it would work? Bill
p.s. Ray I think you should tack those post to the mechical issue area!
p.s.s. ? about the pic of the bumpstop spacer. Was that in your original setup?