Fitting 4W disc brakes? Other wheels?

Discuss with fans and owners of the most luxurious aircooled sedan/wagon that VW ever made, the VW 411/412. Official forum of Tom's Type 4 Corner.
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Wally
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Post by Wally » Fri Aug 11, 2006 1:54 am

func412 wrote: .., but the shifter is awful.
Yes, I agree; shifting action could/should be more precise and more rapid. Mine also sticks a bit...
I believed to have read s/where that the synchros of the type 4 tranny were not that fantastic a choice by VW anyway.
I have once tried to adjust the shifter on the floor, but I hope to have never to do that again..what a pain!
Just bought a parts car, mainly to also have a spare tranny :)
( I'll post a pic of the transport; it was fun 8) )
T4T: Type 4 Turbo engine, under construction

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raygreenwood
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Post by raygreenwood » Fri Aug 11, 2006 11:59 am

The shifter itself...can be fixed to be better with a little work. I agree. As from the factory, it sucked.
It needs several things. (1) You must have a stiffer rear bushing on the tailcone of the transmission to keep the flex down. Part of this is also setting up the entire drivetrain alignment adjustment. It is very specific. Without proper divetrain alignment you will shift poorly. Its simple...but before you can start it you must have a very good tailcone bushing and excellent rear hanger bushings. No deficiencies. If the bushings have deficiencies you will get up and down motion in the drivetrain package that will translate to the shift rod. If you need more info on adjustments and how to make a stiffer more form fitting tailcone bushing....just let me know I have written a bunch about alignment but would be happy to re-post. I cast my own tail bushings for about $10 ea out of 80 duro Urethane compound around tehoriginal mounting bracket. Huge difference.

(2) There is too long of a throw in the shifter. You can make a simple part......which is a copy of the part/kit that you can buy for type 1,2,3. It is a metal cone or bridge. It simply lifts the shift gate plate up higher...about 3-4 inches...from the floor of the car. The height of the shifter stays the same....the ball in the socket stays teh same. It changes the "fulcrum" point of the shift lever so it moves a much shorter distance to create the same length of throw at the shift rod. I can e-mail you asketch of how to make one.

(3) The last problem in the shifter is the floating rod coupling at the rear. This is tedious but pretty simple to fix. It was designed as it is...because there is too much float or flex in the way the factory suspended the engine and driveline. The floating coupling is designed to keep from transfering motion to the shifter. Adding a stiffer tail bushing and correct alignment at the rear bar...will negate the need for so much float in the coupling.
But....what you must do....is once the above two things are accomplished....and alignment of the drivetrain is correct......get under the car.....drain the oil....remove the cover plate on the gearbox.
Then...with teh help of an assistant......slowly shift the tranny through the gears. You will find that because of the floating coupling.....there is too much over-rotation of the shift rod. There is to much slack in the "tube" of the tube and ball coupling. Also you will find...that in some case...the ball part of the lever is too long or too short....to give proper "arc".
To adjust that properly....you needto raise or lower the ball....in the tube coupling. You can do that one of two ways. Make a new ball and stud to give teh right length to that part.....a lot of work......or slot the hole in the plastic disc.....that plugs the tunnel where the shift rod comes out. Once you decide what is teh correct height of teh ball in the tube of teh coupling...to give proper arc....and therefore proper alignment to teh sliders in the tranny by watching through the plate you have removed.......then....you drill a hole all teh way through the tube coupling and the ball stud.....and put a 6mm bolt /pin through it.

Thats a lot of explaining....but I can e-mail you adiagram. You can really make good shifting this way. Ray

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func412
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Post by func412 » Sun Oct 15, 2006 10:14 am

Ray, I´m going to go through all three transmissions this winter. Every help is welcome, how to service type 4 manual gearbox.

I would be pleased if you would e-mail me diagrams. It would maybe help me more than foreign technical language, as I am not native or advanced US/english speaking =)

Thank you guys for sharing some thoughts with brakes and everything. As soon I begin working with transmissions I´ll start a new topic =)

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raygreenwood
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Post by raygreenwood » Sun Oct 15, 2006 10:18 am

Yes. By Mid November I will be disassembing the current transmission in the car to check on the status (wear level) of a previous modification. At that point I will install new spyder gears from an Automatic. At that point I will do a photo documentation with transcripts. I have actually been meaning to do this for well over a year. Just have started getting the time to do so. Keep this thread alive.Ray

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Wally
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Post by Wally » Mon Oct 23, 2006 1:41 am

raygreenwood wrote: Keep this thread alive.Ray
Don't worry a moment about that :twisted:
I have just send out my spare set of rear axles stubs out to be turned down to clear the 944 handbrake assembly. A smart spacer will be made hopefully in the coming weeks that will make fitting 944 turbo disks with 964 C2 brake calipers a breeze 8)
T4T: Type 4 Turbo engine, under construction

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func412
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Post by func412 » Wed Dec 13, 2006 8:29 am

fitting some wheels...

MB 123 and 126 (s-series) model wheels has originally small offset (ET 25 and so). This ET 25 / 7x15" wheel sits fine. I could use 3-5 mm spacer depending on the tires.

The 8-hole MB wheel looks familiar and guite nice under the 412:


Image
Image

This is how they look like polished (picture from EBAY.de):

Image

I also bought (ET 23 / 7x15") 5 spoke wheels for racing

Image

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ubercrap
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Post by ubercrap » Sat Mar 24, 2007 1:43 pm

OK, I've been thinking and working on this subject again. One thing that is very, very cool, is that a rear watercooled VW brake rotor (MK II or III) will fit straight on to the type 4 spindle, as the bearings are identical! This give you the choice of 4x100 or 5x100 bolt patterns. My plan is to use the watercooled brake rotor with the disc part machined off as a hub. Bolt on baby! For the front, it is then just a matter of find the correct rotor for my setup to fit between the hub and Volvo calipers. Pics of my mockup setup coming shortly...

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ubercrap
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Post by ubercrap » Sat Mar 24, 2007 2:34 pm

Oh dammit, I spoke too soon, the bearing spacing is slightly different... :x
The rotor fits on just fine, but the outside bearing won't go on far enough to seat in its proper place, so the 412 bearing spacing is wider...

Hey, anyone know what kind of setup a Vanagon or late Microbus has in the front compared to the 412? :?

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func412
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Post by func412 » Sat Mar 24, 2007 4:10 pm

412 has the front hub bearigs guite near to each other (short axle stub). It´s also very hard to find a rotor that will fit, because the depth what is needed between caliper and the hub. You should find a hub (or hub-rotor combination), that doesn´t increase that depth and the wheel gauge.

I hope you manage to find new solutions. I tried also Opel Vectra rear hub (which has same bearings), but it made the rotor mounting surface too far away from the caliper.

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ubercrap
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Post by ubercrap » Sat Mar 24, 2007 4:26 pm

Well, the watercooled bearing spacing is even smaller than the 412's as I found out! If the stub axle could be machined to have a little bit more outer bearing surface farther onto the axle, my idea could work I suppose. I wish I knew a machinist...

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func412
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Post by func412 » Sun Mar 25, 2007 1:52 am

I might remember incorrectly though, I mean the length of the stub axle.

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ubercrap
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Post by ubercrap » Thu May 31, 2007 9:08 pm

Oh, I wasn't contradicting you, you are quite right! Anyway, I have been giving some more thought to the Volvo caliper setup. I'm thinking that maybe an original Type 4 front brake disc can be turned down to use as a hub. I want to run the 5x130 Porsche bolt pattern and there should be several ways to do that (later discussion).

With the 4x38 Volvo caliper mounted to the spindle, I measured about 60mm from the wheel mounting surface of the disc to the center of the brake caliper. From the look of it, I found a brake disc that might fit. I would think this Porsche disc would fit over the original 412 rotor turned into a hub as they both share a x130 bolt pattern. I'm hoping only the center hole would need enlarged to fit the larger VW centering ring. The disc is Brembo part 25801. It fits the rear of the '98/'99-06 non-turbo Porsche 911. The diameter is 298mm. The min. thickness is 22mm (Starting thickness 24mm? It isn't listed-not sure if that would be too thick) The overall height is 75.5mm. Subtracting 11mm (half the min. disc thickness) you end up with 64.4 mm. The other unknown factor is the thickness of the center section of the Porsche disc, but I am guess it would be between 3-5mm. Depending on this, it could be very close to 60mm, making it centered in the caliper.

Now, the final piece of the puzzle, would be a 20mm factory type spacer, with the back of it machined to fit the remaining part sticking out of the larger VW center bore. The front side would have the centering ring for the Porsche wheel as usual. Now, just mount the high offset Porsche wheel of your choice!

Now for the bolt pattern issue. The lowest cost option would be to redrill the center of the disc. People seem to be able to get away with this on Beetles, even though there isn't much material in some of the places that the Porsche studs would go into, probably because it is so light. I'm not sure if this is a good idea on a type 4, as it is a heavier car than a Beetle.

Another choice would be to turn down the 914 rotors that have reinforcement welded around the redrilled areas for the 5 lug bolt pattern that I mentioned in the past (if they are still available):

http://www.914club.com/bbs2/index.php?a ... ntry359306

(site may have exceeded bandwidth)

However, it seems kind of wasteful and expensive to turn down these brand new rotors as my aim in using the Volvo calipers is that they are fairly inexpensive and plentiful, at least compared to Porsche parts. Conversely, there would be very little complex or precision machining, and that would mostly be a one time thing. Only the rotors would have to have the center holes enlarged when being replaced, which should be a fairly simple operation.

Thoughts?

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Bill K.
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Post by Bill K. » Fri Jun 01, 2007 9:32 am

ubercrap wrote:Now, the final piece of the puzzle, would be a 20mm factory type spacer, with the back of it machined to fit the remaining part sticking out of the larger VW center bore. The front side would have the centering ring for the Porsche wheel as usual. Now, just mount the high offset Porsche wheel of your choice!
The Porsche rotors I've seen have center mounting bores LARGER than VW. Either way, your ideas seem feasible. A custom adapter pressed over the VW centering boss with OD sized for the Porsche rotor for hub centric wheel mounting may work. A stock Porsche spacer could fit over this adapter as well. No modification to Porsche rotor needed...

After turning the disk off the 412 rotor to make it a hub, you could spot face the rear for stud mounts in the 5x130 Porsche pattern. Make the OD of the 412 "hub" a bit smaller than the inside diameter of the Porsche rotor hat (about 150mm). The minimum thickness of the 412 rotor at the stud location would be about 8mm after spot facing.

Questions for Ubercrap -- is the Volvo 4x38 caliper a direct bolt on for the 412 spindle (3" caliper mount spacing)? If so, what is the maximum diameter of rotor that would fit?

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raygreenwood
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Post by raygreenwood » Fri Jun 01, 2007 1:58 pm

The Porsche rotors are identical to VW. In fact...they came on the 411 before the 914 was in production. The later high center boss rotor was added on both the 412 and the 914 in August of 72. Do NOT machine anything from that center boss. If you do, the rotors are scrap. The center boss got rid of the deflection from the original 411/914/type 3 rotor during turns. Without that center boss you must use the ealier 411/type 3 caliper that has the center lock pin and clutch to keep the piston from cocking in the bore and dragging the rotor. Ray

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Bill K.
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Post by Bill K. » Fri Jun 01, 2007 4:09 pm

Bill K. wrote:The Porsche rotors I've seen have center mounting bores LARGER than VW.
...non-914 I mean.

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