Fitting 4W disc brakes? Other wheels?

Discuss with fans and owners of the most luxurious aircooled sedan/wagon that VW ever made, the VW 411/412. Official forum of Tom's Type 4 Corner.
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func412
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Post by func412 » Sun May 14, 2006 12:12 pm

duplicate...
Last edited by func412 on Sun May 14, 2006 12:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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func412
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Post by func412 » Sun May 14, 2006 12:12 pm

Yesterday we succesfully installed the rear brake discs, and the front discs also. More pictures will arrive here soon. Here's two teasers...

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Wally
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Post by Wally » Sun May 14, 2006 3:33 pm

Cool!

But...where did you get Koni yellow rear 412 shocks from??? :shock:

Tnx
Walter
T4T: Type 4 Turbo engine, under construction

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func412
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Post by func412 » Sun May 14, 2006 11:22 pm

I'm happy about Yellow Koni's too! Wallly. you could find those easily 'cause you live in Europe. Those are Opel Ascona/Manta/Kadett (Opel B series, made 1974 to 1980) front shocks. The length of those match 100% compared to 412 schoks. There are also koni´s available for 40mm lowered Opel, which I'm going to find also.

Only bottom mounting was needed to be modifed. I had to make bigger hole to it and put shims to make it be as wide as 412's bottom is.

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func412
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Post by func412 » Mon May 15, 2006 12:38 am

Here are the pictures of brake caliper adapter prototype.

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func412
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Post by func412 » Mon May 15, 2006 10:32 am

Some more pictures...


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Bill K.
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Post by Bill K. » Mon May 15, 2006 10:52 am

Nice work. I like the caliper bracket.
A couple questions:
1. What's the bolt pattern and stud size? Looks like one stud hole breaks through the original...
2. Is the rotor center hole modified?
3. What are the specs on the wheel? Any spacer?

Sisu,
Bill

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func412
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Post by func412 » Mon May 15, 2006 1:34 pm

Hello Bill,

1. Bolt pattern is 5x112 mm and stud is 12mm (hit through bolts in 13 mm hole). Yes, one new stud hole had to break into original bolt hole, but just barely. The stud stays in place like other ones. If it becomes a trouble I´ll fill those holes afterwards.

2. Rotor center hole was modified to match original hub. Also the hub is modified to fit inside the rotor.

3. The wheel is 6,5x15" ET 35 (VW/Audi center hole). It goes in place fine and I can use up to 15 mm spacers depending of the tire size.

The calipers needed some modifying also, because they were made for 18/256 mm rotors. Now I have 22/285 mm.

I hope I manage to test these brakes this week.

BTW: Here´s a wiew of FRONT rotor and caliper through the wheel. Those new brakes totally fills the 15" wheels! The balancing weights of the wheel have just enough room to fit between wheel and the calipers.

Image

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Jadewombat
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Post by Jadewombat » Mon May 15, 2006 7:55 pm

I looked back through this post but couldn't quite figure out, where are those rotors, calipers and hubs from? I'm considering doing a rear disk swap to my '66 bus at some point(the front has already been converted to late 5x112), I was looking at Mercedes setups but I think this would work better.


func412 wrote:Hello Bill,

1. Bolt pattern is 5x112 mm and stud is 12mm (hit through bolts in 13 mm hole). Yes, one new stud hole had to break into original bolt hole, but just barely. The stud stays in place like other ones. If it becomes a trouble I´ll fill those holes afterwards.

2

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func412
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Post by func412 » Mon May 15, 2006 10:59 pm

In your case I would look early baywindow (67-70) rear hubs, if you vant to stay in swing axle. I´m not sure how it would fit, maybe.

I have 66 bus also and I´m going to Irs conversion ang use late baywindow rear axle system.

The mercedes rotors are good for this setup if you use single piston calipers. I have MB 190 2,3 16v front rotors in my rear setup.

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raygreenwood
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Post by raygreenwood » Tue May 16, 2006 7:52 am

Its actually quite easy to find shocks that "fit" the rear of the 411/412. It is MUCH harder to find shocks that will live very long though.
I have killed a pair of bilsteins and a set of Rancho RS 9000 five way adjustable shocks on teh rear of my 412.
Both of them rode and handled quite well....but were not valved correctly to survive.

The problem is that the length...from pivot to shock mounting point......of the arc of travel of the rear trailing wishbone.....added with the suspended weight of the drive train make for huge leverage. Math wise, it rivals teh weight and leverage exerted by an American V-8 car. The difference is that most v-8 vehciles have very short, stubby low leverage trailing arms.

let us know how the Koni's last. Ray

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Jadewombat
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Post by Jadewombat » Tue May 16, 2006 8:46 pm

I should have clarified a little more. The plan is to go to rear IRS as well(002), at least for now, as opposed to going with bug IRS(I hate swingaxle). The kits for doing this trans swap look pretty pricey so I may try to come up with my own solution. I've already done a 924T swap on my '73 1303 and I like the rear brake shoes in the rotor design, which Mercedes has as well. I think if I used bus IRS trailing arms and axle stubs then bolt the Mercedes drum/rotor assembly to this and fab up the bracket for the rotor, this would probably work. I did a 914 rear setup on my friend's Ghia a few years ago and it was a major pain in the ass. I swore I'd never do one again. Well, this would be similar but not quite as evil I guess. :0 I'm not a machinist so the idea of swapping different rotor, hub and caliper assemblies from different cars doesn't appeal to me.
I like to keep it sorta simple.
func412 wrote:In your case I would look early baywindow (67-70) rear hubs, if you vant to stay in swing axle. I´m not sure how it would fit, maybe.

I have 66 bus also and I´m going to Irs conversion ang use late baywindow rear axle system.

The mercedes rotors are good for this setup if you use single piston calipers. I have MB 190 2,3 16v front rotors in my rear setup.

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func412
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Post by func412 » Tue May 16, 2006 11:04 pm

Jadewombat wrote: I think if I used bus IRS trailing arms and axle stubs then bolt the Mercedes drum/rotor assembly to this and fab up the bracket for the rotor, this would probably work.
That's what I´m going to do; use VW 1303S trans, late baywindow trailing arms etc. then use mercedes rotors. If you want bolt on setup, find also early baywindow spring plates... (I don´t know if that is right expression in english though..)

Here's a picture of caliper bracket to T2 for Opel astra rear caliper and mercedes rotor. That's a product of one Finnish T2 owner.

Image

vwbill
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Great work!!

Post by vwbill » Tue May 16, 2006 11:54 pm

Hey nice looking set up! You are going to have some sweet braking!!
Are you going to have pictures or drawings of the parts that you used with dimensions and specs? You have accomplished alot of work on the brake system! Are you using any of the original peices? Thanks for the great post! bill

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func412
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Post by func412 » Wed May 17, 2006 1:43 pm

Hello Bill,

Thanks for the support!

It's not time to celebrate yet, but after I have made this setup work I'll write a short "recipe" about that. This project has been one big research to find all pieces that fits together.

Part list is BMW-Volvo-Audi-Subaru-MB :roll:

Today I had time to put brake fluids in... and it looks like I need bigger brake master cylinder, as I suspected.

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