Backspace

[wildthings]

I am looking for some allow wheels for my '72. Looks like thereare a pretty good variety of Beetle wheels available with either a 3.7" or 4.0" backspace. Just wondering if one or the other is better for use on a T4.

Would like to hear suggestions on sources of good quality but not too expensive alloys as well.

Thanks, WT

[Marc]

The stock 4½" rim for a Type III, IV, or `Ghia is ET46, which gives it a backspace of ~4.3".
Bug 4½" rims came in ET41 and ET34 (5mm and 12mm less backspace, respectively) - fitting them to a Type IV will reduce fender clearance by the same amount and increase steering effort at zero speed (probably not enough to bother you). But the increased scrub radius will make a MacPherson strut front end more susceptible to the shimmies if there are any worn parts.
If you're planning to use wider rims you'll lose fender clearance and increase scrub radius just due to the added width, so by all means get the bigger backspace to avoid exacerbating the effects.

[raygreenwood]

Most of the after market "chromies"...which I think are 356 knock-offs (mangles...no longer made...and Eagle...now made in China)...work great in the 4.5" and 5.5" width. I beleivec those are 4 bolt by 130 lugs (stock) and in the 15" x 5.5" have a 4.75" backspacing. With 205-60-15's they work very well with no fender issues.....but not with stock overly soft shocks that are prone to bottoming.
Glenn is correct. CIP1 advertizes that their 15" x 4.5" rims have a 4" backspacing...andf I can tell you that with teh stockish tire with high sidewall you will be stuck with.....it will r ub teh fenders in turns over bumps.
The spacing for type 4 is very close...if not identical to late type 3 with four bolt rims. Be careful what you buy. The front fenders on type 4's are very flexible and easily damaged. Ray

[Marc]

Ray, just for the record how's the coil spring clearance with 205/60-15s & 4.75" backspace? Are all Type IV f.suspensions the same or did they change on later models like the Supers?

[raygreenwood]

Marc, they changed in detail....but not in chassis or lower strut tube part #. The changes were details to springs, cartridge and strut bearing. The center to center on the struts themselves in the chassis is unchanged. There is about 1/2" to 5/8" at full lock and bump compression...from the outer edge of the tire to the fender lip.
With caster leaning at full lock ...say if you are turning left...the top of the right tire is roughly 1.5" from the spring. They do very well. The 205/60's are a major handling upgrade on this car. 205/55's are about as low as I would go in sidewall because the stiffness is hard on the ball joints at 205/50.
There is a little room to go wider on this car (why you would want to I don't know)....but the reall worry on wider than 205 is when you bottom out if using stock struts cartridges. Because forward of the tire...the space between the inner body tub and the fender narrows to an upside down Vee. Much wider than 205 and a hard bump can cause the tire to strike both fender and inner body. Ray

[wildthings]

Was looking at purchasing either a used set of 5.5" wide Rivieras or a set of these, which are 5" wide.

http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp ... e=C13-9688

Thoughts?

[Marc]

5" rims with 3.7" backspace would have an offset of ~24mm.
The outer lip of the rim would be approximately 1-3/8" further out than a stock 4½" ET46 - can you lose that much fender clearance without rubbing?

[raygreenwood]

On a 411/412.....in straightline driving...yes. In locked turns....doubtful....at least not with 205's. With a stock tire.....yes. But stockish....maybe 185/65 or 195-65....I think you might squeeeeze by..but its risky. I have seen rivieras on 411/412...but I do not know what if any mods were needed. Ray

[wildthings]

Presently running 5.5" steelies with 165R15 tires, don't know the offset or backspace. Will have to check. No problems with rubbing, but the selection of tires in this size is minimal. If my present wheels were closer to being true I wouldn't be thinking of buying new rims.

[Marc]

If you want to run anything wider than 165, stock 4½" rims won't be right. With 5½" rims there are quite a few options.
http://www.yokohamatire.com/customer_se ... width.aspx

NOTE: Rim width is measured bead-to-bead (where the tire sits) - the overall width from lip-to-lip is typically ½" or so greater.

[raygreenwood]

Presently running 5.5" steelies with 165R15 tires, don't know the offset or backspace. Will have to check. No problems with rubbing, but the selection of tires in this size is minimal. If my present wheels were closer to being true I wouldn't be thinking of buying new rims.

Also running 165's on 5.5's is marginal. Those are slightly wide. Typically a 155 and 165 was a stock tire on a 4.5" rim. In more than a few cases...when I was young and even cheaper than I am now...I ran 185's on the stock 4.5's. I had to check the air pressure virually every day. Bead roll on corners lost a lot of air.
But its a lot less of a big deal running slightly too wide of a rim with a smaller tire than the opposite like I did in highschool. You might get an oddwear patern but I don't think the bead seating will be an issue at all. Ray

[wildthings]

My 165R15 street tires are on aftermarket 5.5" rims (bead to bead) and look pretty nice. It would be easy to get a curb rash though. Unfortunately these 5.5" wheels are shoddily made and can not be balanced using the center hole as it is not sufficiently concentric with the bolt pattern. Our local tire shop used to have a pin adapter that they could use to balance them but the adapter has disappeared. My snows sit on the stock 4.5" rims which are lightly made and are just plain bent. I do have a set of stock VW 5.5 rims that I could try, but they are lightly made as well, so I would expect them to be bent just like the 4.5" rims.

It is really looking, to get the proper backspace with 5.5" rims, that I may have to go with a used set of Fuchs, which have a 46ET IIRC. I haven't found out yet what the backspace is for 5.5" Rivieras. Any ideas what problems to look for with either used Fuchs or Rivieras?

[tuna]

I think a diagram will help some of you who need to visualize it.



This was the best one I could find to show backspacing vs. offset, and it even shows how to measure your wheels.

The only adjustment I'd make to this diagram is they show the "Wheel width" as the overall rim width. Wheel sizes are generally the bead widths, but my experience has been that the overall rim width is about 1" smaller than the bead width.

So for instance, the 15x4 VW wheels I've measured have a 4" bead width, but have an overall width of 5".

Tuna

[wildthings]

Well I have found a couple of possible wheel choices. Both are 5.5 x 15 wheels with 4 9/16" back spacings.

http://www.kustom1warehouse.net/2_liter ... lloyrl.htm

http://www.kustom1warehouse.net/2_liter ... oyempi.htm

After the difference in the shipping (the wheels in the first link ship for free), lug nuts, etc, the difference in cost is about $20 per wheel.

Anyone have any experience and thoughts on either of these wheels.

[raygreenwood]

I have always liked the look of the 2 liter alloy. They should fit well....especially considering the brakes on 411/412 and 914 are the same. I have thought about those wheels in plain...no black paint...just painted to match my car with a polished rim...or black with a polished rim. Ray