type 4 trans

[fusername]

are they their own animal or what did they use? I picked up a stack of T4 repair manuals since one or two of them said trans on the side and I am trying to learn how to service them myself, I guess I had simply assumed they used an 091 of sorts. I haven't had a chance to dig through them yet as they are in the trunk of a friends car that has been in the shop ever since and am getting really curious.

[bradey bunch]

Not the same. From Ray Greenwood on another site, regarding the longevity issues.:

These transmissions are toatlly different than normal bug and bus trannys. They require only a few precsion instruments and no special jigs.
The three issues are:
(1) the counter gear shaft has only two needle bearings. They are poorly lubricated. As they wear generally, they are running directly on the inner bore of the gear cluster itself...and on the 18mm hardened steel shaft running through the center. As the needles are harder than the shaft and gear...they score both parts. That cannot be fixed. But...if you catch it early, you can replace the needles with cartridge style needle bearings with their own outer race...similar to the transmission pilot bearing in the end of the crank (I have a part #). And....the inner shaft is simply a straight hardened 18mm shaft with a 3mm nocth milled at one one . You can buy 18mm shaft stock and have teh end ground for under $75-100....so putting a new shaft and bearings in is actually simple and cheap. The oiling is improved by widening the single oil hole with a dremel tool...and filing flow-through oil relief slots at each end of the counter gear. I am aslo working on a simple pump system that can force feed this are and also feed the differential.
If you let the counter gear needles wear until they are howling....and they can run like that foer 10,000 miles easy...it not only destroys the gear faces of #4....it shatters the needles and they fall into the bore of teh counter gear cluster....making it impossible to remove from the case...without destroying the case.

The verdict on this fix:...before you drive.....spend $100 and strip the transmission down. Its a one day job on a clean workbench. Fix this and you have another 70-100k miles problem free.

(2) In the differential the spyder gears have a very high ratio. It makes for quick cornering and power transfer. I think there are only 7 teeth on each spyder. They are very long teeth and are unique to this tranny....as is the ring gear....and every part in this transmission save for two differential side bearings.
There are no replacemnet parts for this transmission other than a few seals, the ring and pinion bearings , and four needle bearings (counter gear and 2nd gear needles).
This issue is that with high milage....or worn differential and pinion bearings (eaither way they are caused by high milage).....the thrust washers for the differential side gear shafts that spline to the CV hubs....and/or the thrust washers on the spyder gears...wear out. When they do....they allow slop in the side geasr and spyders...causing spalling and cracking of the spyder teeth. When that happens....and one cracks....it destroys the ring and pinion.

The fix for this: when your pre-emptively tear down the tranny to replace teh needle bearings on the counter gear...simply replace the thrust washers in the differential. That takes about 1.5 hours.

(3) You should replace that countershaft no matter how good it looks....and the very best mod...is to literally get rid of the needle bearings and by a piece of torlon bushing stock. Have it machined into a pair of bushings and replace teh needle bearings altogther. There is a complete thread with plans in the 411/412 forum in the shop talk forums.
Torlon is a phenolic resin that is higher impact than delrin...chemically inert, good to about 600F and has a coffecicent of friction similar to teflon.
Let me know if I can help.
This is a great car! Ray

Hope this helps,
Braden

[bradey bunch]

Oh, and I forgot to add that most of the trannys used are autos, which are a type 3 tranny, thus more parts are available. Only the 2 door coupes used the sticks in the us, but in canada and the rest of the world (I think) 4 speeds were available on all models.

[raygreenwood]

If you have an actual type 4 repair manual and its for a type 4 transmission...for Gods sake...let me know what it looks like. I have never seen a single manual (other than Haynes) with anything on the type 4 (004) transmission. I will happily pay you to let me photograph the whole thing. There is not too much I cannot do to these transmisson. I really am limited by what parts are available (not many).

The post that Bradey Bunch reposted below is actually one of several that I describe these transmissions with. It kind of shows them in the wrong light. they last a evry long time. If you get one in good shape and stop to replace the few bearings you can get, and correct the defficiencies I describe in that post...you can get another 100k miles from these boxes. Very well designed. Very quiet.

These transmissions bear no resemblance to any other transmission in any ACVW. There are less than a handful of parts that will even remotely fit any other transmission. Off the top of my head, the final drive outer adjuster rings for the differential side bearings are the same as 091. The differential side bearings are same as 091. The side seals (two different designs..shallow and deep) are same as 091. There is not another single part in the differential that fits anything else (actually the spyder gear thrust washers are 091). The shifter hockey stick shaft seal is the same as most other ACVW. The spring rings that hold the synchro hug sliding key/dogs in place are the same as type 1. The second gear synchro rings...in early years...were the same as some early 911's.
Its extremely possible that the 3/4 synchro rings "might" be the same as an Audi 013 or 014 four or five speed.
Aside from these items....there is not another single recognizable part similar to anything I have ever seen.

Even the case is unique...and very light and innovative. It is a 3 piece case. Tail cone just like and 091...but designed 180* opposite fit...and totally different internally The gearbox section (transfer case) with all of the gears is a separate casting. The differential section is a separate casting. The beauty of this is.....that if you destroy the differential section...another differential section can simply be swapped onto the transfer case. Or...if you destroy the transfer case gearsection...and the diff is good...you canswap another transfer case onto that diff....with no adjustments. Each section is adjusted and shimmed to its case.

The mainshaft with all of the gears on it is about 3 feet long standing up out of the differential section. All of the gears are held on in one stack with a single snap ring (type 1 part actually) and retainer (type 1 part). There are a grand total of one shim for setting spacing, one variable thickness snap ring, three needle bearings (all unique to this car) and one hardened steel bushing.

The counter gear cluster resides strictly in the second section of the case. It has a separate 18mm shaft...simple. You remove the square plate on the bottom of the transmission...actually the same plate part # used on an autostick type 1....pull the tail housing.....pull the simple 18mm shaft out of the case with a threaded bolt....and simple finger pressure. The counter gear cluster...all one piece...with its two needle bearings and two thrust washers falls into your hands. The thrust washers have thicknesses stamped on the back that match that case casting...so rebuilding is simply a matter of replacing those shims with identical thickness. Once the counter cluster comes out....two bolts...four screws....and all of the shift rods and forks and dents pull right out.

11 acorn nuts and one snap ring.....and the whole transfer case section of the case pulls off the mainshaft gear stacka nd you are looking at a 2 foot tall shaft with a stack of gears and a snap ring. Pull that snap ring...and the entire gear stack comes off....with all synchros and hubs...in one stack to lay down on the workbench....no puller necessary.

Use a long arm puller to remove the magnesium mainshaft centering ring ( I usually do it with two soft levers)...and you are looking at the differential.

Inside the bell housing...remove five nuts. The entire main gear shaft....which IS the pinion shaft as well...all one oiece with a pinion gear on the end and a cast steel carrier with two bearings wrapped around it......pulls out through the bell housing. A single shim around the five bolt plate...is what locates the pinion to ring distance.

I did not mention that the first and most unique part you remove....is the main dive shaft. Its about 36" long from the splined section with pilot bearing area.....to the splined tail that connects into the huge ball bearing in the back of the case at the other end of the transmission. You remove the back seat of the car...pull a cover plate with three screw...unscrew a plug on the back of the tranny...remove a 15mm nut and "E" clip...and the entire mainshaft pulls out of the clutch, through the hollow main gear/pinion shaft....and out through the back seat of the car.

The main driveshaft....runs inside and through the main gearshaft/pinion shaft. This transmission is literally driven from the tail end rearward. The huge ball bearing that the driveshaft splines into...is splined to the main gearshaft/pinion shaft...just inside the tail cone.
The clutch turns the main drive shaft. The main drive shaft drives a large ball bearing with a steel conical splined hub in teh center inside of the tail cone housing.....that bearing and hub are splined onto the top end of the main gear shaft/pinion shaft. This is what rotates the pinion shaft and gears.

Except for the specialized measuring when setting up the differential...the entire tranny can be disassembled and reassembled in about an hour in each direction.....no jigs or special tools. Ray

[fusername]

my god, these things must have cost VW a fortune. Sounds like the manuals will be fun, and then fully offfered up for sale, I have no use I guess. They are the Blue VW emblazoned binder type manuals, I think bently published them? Man I wish there was an engine book in the lot, that would be really nice to have.

however once I get my hands on em I am going to spend a long time looking at the trans diagrams. they sound bizarre. VW decided to reinvent the wheel this time around it would seem. Always nice to hear an out pouring of information from you ray, priceless to the community.

[raygreenwood]

I have to say...these transmissions are ahead of their time. They are a joy to drive...and definately built with the 411/412..and type 4 engine in mind. They have a few easy to correct flaws that shorten their life...after a long life in the first place.
By this I mean that all flaws can be addressed for under $120. After that....killer gear ratios to go with type 4 torque and 411/412 weight distribution.

I try hard to convince everyone to slow down and do these right....becuase once you screw them up...parts are unobtanoium (as are replacements). Ray

[wildthings]

Somewhere here there is a thread where someone installed an 091-1 in their T4. I think if I ever wanted to do a swap to a manual I would consider this route over the 004 so that I would have a tranny with better parts availability.

[vonkr]

I can check if there's something in my (original) workshop manual about the manual trans.

The type 4 manual trans works good if everything is adjusted ok, but a lot of little things
make it work bad. That's why I am considering to switch to automatic trans.

It's the world up side down, because in europe most cars have manual trans.

If your transmission work good, than don't start to get problems...

[raygreenwood]

Somewhere here there is a thread where someone installed an 091-1 in their T4. I think if I ever wanted to do a swap to a manual I would consider this route over the 004 so that I would have a tranny with better parts availability.

I do not think it was an 091....possibly a porsche 901. The tail cone of an 091 is 180 degrees opposite...and would mean cutting the body.
The 091 would not be a great transmission for the 411/412. (a) the gear ratios are miserable for the engine in this car. It would be a slug unless you could find a higher final drive. Also..(b) the 091 is almost double the weight IIRC...of the 004. (c) it is not the same length and will have issues with centering the driveline.

There is not much room around the 004. There will have to be body cutting just to put an 091 in. Ray

[raygreenwood]

I can check if there's something in my (original) workshop manual about the manual trans.

The type 4 manual trans works good if everything is adjusted ok, but a lot of little things
make it work bad. That's why I am considering to switch to automatic trans.

It's the world up side down, because in europe most cars have manual trans.

If your transmission work good, than don't start to get problems...

All of the 004's will eventually have porblems. But....if you stop driving it NOW while it has no whining, howling or grinding....all of the few problems can be fixed for cheap. Most of these will then drive 500,000 miles easily.
I cannot stress this enough. It it drives fine....DO NOT leave it alone. Take it out NOW...and fix the minor design flaws. If you wait until it starts to have problems it will be unrepairable.

This can happen for several reasons; (a) if you wait until the countershaft needle bearinsg are worn....you can either wear the gear excesively or detsry it when the teeth from 4th gear strip off (they are the first to go)...about 75% of them die this way (b) if you wait until the spyder gears are out of mesh because of worn outputshaft shims....it will strip teeth from the spyders. 50% of the time you can get home...just to find out that the spyders are unavailable. The other 50% of the time....the broken spyder teeth strips the ring and pinion.

All of this is avoidable for less than $120 worth of work and parts. Ray

[wildthings]

Somewhere here there is a thread where someone installed an 091-1 in their T4. I think if I ever wanted to do a swap to a manual I would consider this route over the 004 so that I would have a tranny with better parts availability.

I do not think it was an 091....possibly a porsche 901. The tail cone of an 091 is 180 degrees opposite...and would mean cutting the body.

It was an 091-1 and not a 091. The 091-1 is the vanagon transmission with a side shifter. The guy who did the conversion used a cable set up to do the shifting. For many people's use, the 091-1 would probably work very well. My 411 hardly ever goes over 60 mph on my local roads so the gearing would be fine.

[raygreenwood]

Somewhere here there is a thread where someone installed an 091-1 in their T4. I think if I ever wanted to do a swap to a manual I would consider this route over the 004 so that I would have a tranny with better parts availability.

I do not think it was an 091....possibly a porsche 901. The tail cone of an 091 is 180 degrees opposite...and would mean cutting the body.

It was an 091-1 and not a 091. The 091-1 is the vanagon transmission with a side shifter. The guy who did the conversion used a cable set up to do the shifting. For many people's use, the 091-1 would probably work very well. My 411 hardly ever goes over 60 mph on my local roads so the gearing would be fine.

Yes...thank you! My memory was jogged with the repost of that thread above. Back in 2006 it was. The side shifter thing is what threw me back then...I have not really worked on Vanagons others than tinkering.
Also there is another thread...where I believe it might have been Wally comparing the 004 tranny side by side with a 915 with has a virtually dientcial tail cone. Ray

[Nico]

Today I replaced my broken tranny for one that I bought in "good shape" acording the owner.
1,2,3,4 are great, But i cant get it in reverse. What could that be?

[raygreenwood]

A handful of things:
(1) There is a very specific alignment of the entire drivetrain package that MUST be done...or there can be problems. Not going into reverse is indicative of driveline alignment issues. If you did not speciifcally check it...it is out of alignment.

(2) the reverse gear has an adjustment to its sliding fork. It is an external adjustment with a knurled eccentric screw under a cap held with two screws...but you nust have the transmission drained and the pan off to meaure the gap while you adjust.
Before you do any of this, check the driveline alignment, then adjust the shifter according to the book, make sure your clutch is operating properly....by the way...in what condition was the fulcrum plate that the clutch fork pivots on?

When this is done, then drain the oil, pull the plate...and then re-install temporailly the long green screw that holds the reverse shaft. Put the transmission in reverse....then carefully remove the cap from the reverse adjuster bolt so that you do not move it. turn the screw while adjusting the gap between the reverse idler gear and the reverse gear...the large gear toward the differential.
As you turn the knurled screw you will see the reverse idler gear slide back and forth. You move the idler gear until it is flush along its edge with the large reverse gear....this means engaged all the way across the gear and flush with the rear edge. When the reverse is disengaged it should have about .020" clearance.

if you notice that the gear is roughed up on its engaeing edge....you can remove the reverse gear shaft without disassembling the transmission with a little work and smooth the gear edges.

But.....if you are finding this...it means that the transmission has enough miles that it should be stripped, cleaned and have at a bare minimum...the counter shaft bearings replaced.

These transmissions are not similar at all to other ACVW's. They should not just be swapped in from a junkyard or used. They must be stripped, cleaned. corrected and adjusted or they will have a short life. And they don't grow on trees. Ray

[Nico]

Thanks for the repply Ray,

I have a early 411, so the transmision wil not have the mounting bracket in the above the clutch. The only mounting places that I have is the engine mounting bracket and the two bolts and the nose cone. So how can I align that?

I replaced the tranny so that I can drive again, and I can repare the old one. I have bought 3 other tranny's so I will use the best one.

I will wait for you're answer how I can align the tranny, I saw it before in you're posts but only for the tranny with a mounting bracket. And I think that I understand that.

Otherwise I will try to adjust the reverse.

Thanks a lot.

Nico (sorry for the bad English)